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Jeff NJ's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkowi View Post
In the photo it sure looks like it might be longer than a stock release bearing. If it's longer the fingers on the release fork might not be able to pull back far enough to, well, release things.
Norm, since it is a lightweight PP, it is not as deep, so it needs an adapter ring to put the starter ring gear in the right location and a longer TO bearing guide tube since the PP is actually further away from the trans.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
. . . is actually further away from the trans.
What's Paul got to do with this?!?!?!
Old 05-14-2015, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
I guess parts could be defective (warped, bad bearing, etc.), but boy would that be bad luck, huh?
It would be bad luck, but as I mentioned earlier it does happen, and more often than you'd like to think. You're not dealing with the OE parts there anymore so that also introduces additional variables.

If the pressure plate spacer or that release bearing are incorrectly sized by a few millimeters, that would do it I think. Sometimes the wrong parts end up in the package too, so that the packaging suggests its the right part, but its really not.

The pressure plate you're replacing was the standard (fat) one, yes? If you have the engine out again perhaps there is a way that you could measure the distance from release bearing to the flywheel and compare the old vs. the new. Might be a tough measurement to make accurately, but it would tell you for sure if that's the problem.

You say your old clutch disk came out in pieces, no? I'd think that was the cause of your prior problem. It seems to me those pieces would get jammed up and cause the same symptoms.
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Old 05-15-2015, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
. . . is actually further away from the trans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
What's Paul got to do with this?!?!?!

Isn't it counter intuitive to think Paul would be farther from the tranny?

Oh, wait, I see now, you're saying Paul is the tranny ...
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
What's Paul got to do with this?!?!?!
The funny thing is that I originally typed tranny, but actually changed it to trans because I KNEW the Paul jokes would be immediate.

Note to self: It doesn't matter what you write, Paul and Ronnie will find a joke in there somewhere... LOL.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
The funny thing is that I originally typed tranny, but actually changed it to trans because I KNEW the Paul jokes would be immediate.

Note to self: It doesn't matter what you write, Paul and Ronnie will find a joke in there somewhere... LOL.
You could try "gearbox" and see what the group (read, Ronnie) comes up with.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
It would be bad luck, but as I mentioned earlier it does happen, and more often than you'd like to think. You're not dealing with the OE parts there anymore so that also introduces additional variables.

If the pressure plate spacer or that release bearing are incorrectly sized by a few millimeters, that would do it I think. Sometimes the wrong parts end up in the package too, so that the packaging suggests its the right part, but its really not.

The pressure plate you're replacing was the standard (fat) one, yes? If you have the engine out again perhaps there is a way that you could measure the distance from release bearing to the flywheel and compare the old vs. the new. Might be a tough measurement to make accurately, but it would tell you for sure if that's the problem.

You say your old clutch disk came out in pieces, no? I'd think that was the cause of your prior problem. It seems to me those pieces would get jammed up and cause the same symptoms.
Yeah, if I do drop the motor, I will be paying close attention to the parts I replaced to see if they are out of spec. I do have the old PP to compare it to, but since they are different, it wont be easy to know if it is wrong since the tolerances are probably so tight between perfect and unusable.

I also would need to figure out how to test the PP to make sure it is actually releasing the correct amount while I have it out. No idea what it should be or how to test it at the moment. Assuming I determine that the flywheel is on correctly, the friction disc is the correct thickness and diameter, and the clutch release fork is not bent or broken, it would have to be the pressure plate either mounted wrong, out of spec or not releasing correctly.

I am trying to figure out which is cause and which is effect with respect to my failed friction disc. Did my old friction disc cause the binding when it was in three pieces? Or did another issue cause the failure of the disc and it was never the root cause to begin with?

I have lined up a Porsche tech to come to my house and check it out, so depending on how fast he can get here, I may leave it alone so he can see the issue in action before I pull it apart. There is still the possibility that the PSJ or the clutch cable are adjusted improperly (small chance, but you never know).
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:21 AM
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Jeff, your TO bearing looks different than my 1986 one:
Yours:


Mine:


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Old 05-15-2015, 09:04 AM
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Hello Jeff,

I'm cautious to ask this question but... here you go...did you remember to remove the three wire retainers on the new pressure plate alignment pins, when you installed the assembly onto the flywheel??

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 05-15-2015 at 11:29 AM..
Old 05-15-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by full quack View Post
Hello Jeff,

I'm causes to ask this question but... here you go...did you remember to remove the three wire retainers on the new pressure plate alignment pins, when you installed the assembly onto the flywheel??

Mark
LOL. I actually tried to install it with those clips on, but couldn't get the TO bearing into the diaphragm with them in. Chris C politely told me to remove them (probably laughing while he did). So, yes, they are removed. Good thought though!
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:25 AM
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On other vehicles with hydraulic clutches after I had the FW cut I've installed a FW shim to maintain the original FW to TOB dimension. Otherwise the clutch won't release correctly depending on how much was taken off. I don't think that problem is possible with this design but you might check the thickness of the FW between the crank face and the friction face compared to stock specs. But with the amount of adjustment available on the clutch cable I doubt if that is a possible problem.
Old 05-15-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gsxrken View Post
Jeff, your TO bearing looks different than my 1986 one:
Ken, he's using a different set up from the stock. I'm not positive, but I think that this set up is a sachs motorsports PP. It's much lighter than the boat anchors that came stock on our cars. The stock PP is extra fat because it had to have space to acommodate the famous exploding rubber center clutch disks that were OE for many years. Once you switch to spring center clutch, the PP doesn't need to be so fat (wide). When you run one of these alternative and thinner PPs, then you have to run the extended TO bearing to make up the difference. Just a few more variables though because its not like you can look in PET and verify the part numbers are correct for the car.
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Old 05-15-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
Ken, he's using a different set up from the stock. I'm not positive, but I think that this set up is a sachs motorsports PP. It's much lighter than the boat anchors that came stock on our cars. The stock PP is extra fat because it had to have space to acommodate the famous exploding rubber center clutch disks that were OE for many years. Once you switch to spring center clutch, the PP doesn't need to be so fat (wide). When you run one of these alternative and thinner PPs, then you have to run the extended TO bearing to make up the difference. Just a few more variables though because its not like you can look in PET and verify the part numbers are correct for the car.
Ahh... sorry for any confusion, Jeff.
In that case, I imagine the aftermarket manufacturer should specify what the distance from the flywheel surface out to the throwout bearing ears must be, to avert this very scenario.
Dropping an engine is mentally much harder to do than it is physically, and I don't say that to trivialize it. I would be swearing in the general direction of the aftermarket right now.
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Old 05-15-2015, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
Ken, he's using a different set up from the stock. I'm not positive, but I think that this set up is a sachs motorsports PP. It's much lighter than the boat anchors that came stock on our cars. The stock PP is extra fat because it had to have space to acommodate the famous exploding rubber center clutch disks that were OE for many years. Once you switch to spring center clutch, the PP doesn't need to be so fat (wide). When you run one of these alternative and thinner PPs, then you have to run the extended TO bearing to make up the difference. Just a few more variables though because its not like you can look in PET and verify the part numbers are correct for the car.
Exactly right. In theory, the shorter PP with the longer TO bearing extension should put the tabs in the exact same place relative to the clutch fork. Just one of the things I need to check if I pull the motor.
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Old 05-15-2015, 12:04 PM
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You could try "gearbox" and see what the group (read, Ronnie) comes up with.
Interesting, and no doubt calculated, choice of words there, eNormousmaximus (ya' perv)!!!

PS - Ya' Paul is too preoccupied chasing sheep at his "conferece" - the smut is left to me for the time being, it appears (well, except for the posts that you've been INSERTING as of late). And then there's Jeff with his "thanks for the tip" commentary, so I guess I'm not on my own after all!!!

Paul having fun at his "conference" and looking spiffy in his black & white ensemble!!


Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-15-2015 at 12:45 PM..
Old 05-15-2015, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gsxrken View Post
Ahh... sorry for any confusion, Jeff.
In that case, I imagine the aftermarket manufacturer should specify what the distance from the flywheel surface out to the throwout bearing ears must be, to avert this very scenario.
Dropping an engine is mentally much harder to do than it is physically, and I don't say that to trivialize it. I would be swearing in the general direction of the aftermarket right now.
While these aren't OEM parts, they are practically off the shelf parts as this has been done hundreds of times by Chris C himself and I am sure Sachs has made thousands of them. Not that it can't be a problem as Jake has correctly pointed out, only that this is not some one-off custom job. It is the stock specs for the 76-77 930 PP (but aluminum) and a spacer ring to make up for the shorter PP (easy to measure since I can just stack them and measure against the original) and the TO extension should be the same amount longer than the original as the spacer ring is. The actual TO bearing is the OEM one (just the collar with the extension is not OEM), the needle bearing is the OEM one, the friction disc fits all 930's from 78-88. It is designed to just drop in with those two changes (spacer and TO extension).

The more I think about it (not getting much work done today), even if the spacer or TO extension were out of spec length-wise, because the fork position is infinitely adjustable with the cable and levers, when you pull the cable 25mm, it will still pull the TO bearing away from the friction disc the correct amount, so neither of these specs should matter. Now, if the PP was defective where the pulling the TO bearing out the correct distance did not cause the pressure plate to back away from the friction disc enough, then that would be an issue. I really didn't pay much attention to how that assy actually works, but I will be if I open it up.

If the TO bearing travel is say 8mm (for example) when the cable is pulled 25mm, how far back is the PP supposed to pull off the friction disc? It is spring loaded, so it probably isn't the same 8mm. Maybe it is 4mm, which gives enough clearance that no power is being transmitted to the friction disc. What if the diaphragm is assembled incorrectly, or something else is wrong and it only pulls back 2mm? enough to let it slip, but still drive the wheels like mine are being driven with the clutch in... Just another scenario I have to consider if I pull the motor. I can clearly see through the inspection hole that the diaphragm splines are moving considerably toward the transmission when the clutch pedal is depressed fully, so that tells me that the cable, levers, fork, and the TO assy is moving correctly, but I cannot see how far back the actual surface of the PP is moving away from the friction disc without pulling the motor.

Anyone have the specs as to how far back the TO bearing goes when the clutch cable pulls the spec 25mm? And how far back is that supposed to move the PP surface? I would think that the stock clutch should have the same specs as my new one.
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Last edited by Jeff NJ; 05-15-2015 at 12:41 PM..
Old 05-15-2015, 12:38 PM
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Here goes....have to ask.....leave no stones unturned....you didn't forget to install the pilot bearing/bushing, did you? If not, your transmission input shaft will wobble and clutch disengagement would be a crapshoot.
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Old 05-15-2015, 01:40 PM
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Here goes....have to ask.....leave no stones unturned....you didn't forget to install the pilot bearing/bushing, did you? If not, your transmission input shaft will wobble and clutch disengagement would be a crapshoot.
For this I have photographic proof!

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Old 05-15-2015, 01:58 PM
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is everything happy down in the peddle cluster?
worn plastic pedal bushings, stuff like that?

did the moth with glowing eyes put a curse on your clutch?
Old 05-15-2015, 02:16 PM
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Jeff,
Did you clean up and lube the splines on the gearbox input shaft before installing the gearbox? You need to make sure that the disc moves freely along the input shaft.

Also, did you install the disc on its correct side? I'm sure you did...but never hurt to check.

(Note that I left out trans/tranny...so let's see if Ronnie will notice anything!)
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Last edited by MikeD930; 05-15-2015 at 02:42 PM..
Old 05-15-2015, 02:40 PM
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