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New clutch install/adjustment issue

So I got my motor installed with my new clutch and I am having similar problems to the one that came out in pieces. I cannot get it to go into reverse because it grinds super bad if I try. I do not force it, but when I attempt to ease it into reverse, it is clear the gears are turning in the wrong direction at high speed. I had assumed the old clutch did that because the friction disc was in three pieces.
I have adjusted the Wevo PSJ coupler so that it shifts like butter into all gears with the engine off, but when I have the engine running, it is very difficult to get it into any forward gears. No grinding into forward gears, just takes a LOT of effort if the engine is running. (didn't do this before I dropped my motor).

I started it in gear, on jackstands, with the clutch fully depressed and the wheels move at full speed. I can stop them with my hands, but it isn't easy and the motor does drag a bit when I do that. I think the clutch is not releasing enough to have the friction disc stop turning. I have adjusted the clutch a few times from scratch and I'm fairly certain it is correct. 25mm travel. 1.0mm gap for the adjuster bolt. Pedal cluster has been rebuilt last year, new cable, new omega spring. Even going up to 28mm travel has no effect.

I talked to Chris Carroll about it and as usual he was helpful and gave me some guidance, and some things to try, but so far, no luck. He believes it is possible that there is something wrong in the tranny causing it to not stop rotating, or the clutch is not adjusted properly, but isn't sure since it is not in his shop.

Any ideas from the brain trust here? I don't want to pull my motor to check the clutch and trans, but I'm running out of options.

TIA.
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:41 PM
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Jeff, sorry if this is a silly question, but since you didn't mention it, I'll ask; are you sure that your clutch cable is routed correctly (above the throttle bell crank and the firewall end positioned in the Bowden tube so that it has a nice arc to it)? If it is not positioned perfectly, the clutch will not operate correctly and typically, the car will shake/judder violently when you release the clutch pedal in first gear (I know from experience, unfortunately) - not that you mentioned that, but I get the impression from your post that you have not moved the car under power with the wheels on the ground . . .
Old 05-12-2015, 10:58 PM
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Not a silly question Ronnie. I did confirm that it is plugged into the firewall correctly and it definitely arcs over the throttle assy. I have not driven it yet. Only run the motor in gear while on jackstands.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:05 PM
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Jeff, it sounds like you've got the cable situated properly.

Something worth mentioning, which you've probably already discussed with Chris, is that it is very misleading to try and judge the performance, or "feel" of the clutch and gearbox if the wheels are freewheeling without the resistance that the ground and weight of the car provides (one of the reasons that chassis dynos have a drum brake) - hand/arm resistance is not enough (well, Paul's right hand/arm might be sufficient - Popeye wept when he saw it, after all). Probably what you should do next is put the car on the ground, get it moving, and see how things feel then.
Old 05-12-2015, 11:52 PM
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Thanks Ronnie. Not ready to drive it yet. Regardless, it won't help the grinding.

Anyone have a similar issue where it seems the clutch doesn't fully disengage?
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Old 05-13-2015, 04:29 PM
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Jeff,

Have not had your exact issue but am familiar with the components of the clutch. I'm sure Chris C. has forgotten more about Porsches than I know, but I am struggling with how your problem could be something internal to the transmission.

Clutch not disengaging fully seems to me to be a limited number of things it can be

1) incorrect parts or out of spec parts somewhere (like pressure plate, clutch plate, flywheel, throw out bearing, clutch release fork).
2) incorrect adjustment (seems you have this covered...there aren't many really).
3) incorrect installation (take a pic of the release arm, omega spring, etc., post it up maybe something's out of whack)

I'm wondering if you inspected the clutch release fork (its the doo-dad that interfaces with the throwout bearing). they can crack/fail partially which might create the symptoms you've described.
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Old 05-13-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
Jeff,

Have not had your exact issue but am familiar with the components of the clutch. I'm sure Chris C. has forgotten more about Porsches than I know, but I am struggling with how your problem could be something internal to the transmission.

Clutch not disengaging fully seems to me to be a limited number of things it can be

1) incorrect parts or out of spec parts somewhere (like pressure plate, clutch plate, flywheel, throw out bearing, clutch release fork).
2) incorrect adjustment (seems you have this covered...there aren't many really).
3) incorrect installation (take a pic of the release arm, omega spring, etc., post it up maybe something's out of whack)

I'm wondering if you inspected the clutch release fork (its the doo-dad that interfaces with the throwout bearing). they can crack/fail partially which might create the symptoms you've described.
Thanks Jake,

Yeah, Chris has been super supportive and is more of the opinion at this point that it is clutch related.

To address your points:
1. The entire clutch assy is new, save for the flywheel which was resurfaced. While possible, it is unlikely that the parts are out of spec.
2. I think it is adjusted correctly... I could be totally wrong though.
3. Internally, there really isn't much to screw up since it only goes together one way. A couple pics of the inside and outside are below.
4. I took a pic of the release fork while I had it apart and sent it to Chris C and he said it looked OK. Pic is below too.

It is just strange. It seems I get the correct clutch travel outside, but it does not release inside the clutch assy. I am starting to think that something wrong caused my old clutch to fail by not disengaging and the problem is still unresolved.





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Old 05-13-2015, 08:46 PM
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Jeff, I don't mean to harp, but just for the sake of curiosity, take the car off of the stands, run it (don't necessarily need to drive it - maybe roll it a little bit in the garage) and see how it shifts and/or if there is any grinding when trying to select reverse with the wheels on the ground . . .
Old 05-13-2015, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
Jeff, I don't mean to harp, but just for the sake of curiosity, take the car off of the stands, run it (don't necessarily need to drive it - maybe roll it a little bit in the garage) and see how it shifts and/or if there is any grinding when trying to select reverse with the wheels on the ground . . .
I'll try this tomorrow Ronnie. What are you thinking may be happening?

Thanks!
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:28 PM
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^^^ When the drive wheels are in the air, freewheeling, they will always spin to some extent even with the clutch fully disengaged. In other words, some clutch drag is always present (clutch does not "fully" release), and the drag is accentuated by the wheels offering almost zero resistance (not in contact with the ground or under any weight) - kinda like Paul when he's cruising his favorite alternative lifestyle bars = zero resistance on his part. I'm not saying that is 100% going to be the "cause" of what you are experiencing, but definitely worth looking into.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-13-2015 at 09:45 PM..
Old 05-13-2015, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
1. The entire clutch assy is new, save for the flywheel which was resurfaced. While possible, it is unlikely that the parts are out of spec.
You can never assume that even new parts are "in spec." When I rebuilt my engine, I had brand new parts that were defective. It happens.

Check out the video I took of a rocker shaft cone nut that was in my engine. Factory part:


You can certainly try Ronnie's suggestion. Clutches can/will drag a bit even when disengaged. Your description that the wheels are hard to stop and drag the engine idle rpm down sounds like more than normal drag to me. I also note that you're not running the OE pressure plate and throwout bearing there. Looks like one of the lighter weight motorsport pressure plates that requires the lengthened throwout bearing. Not sure how many varieties those bits come in, so is it possible that one of those pieces in incorrect for the application, or maybe the pressure plate is supposed to be spaced off of the flywheel a bit?
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:54 AM
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I concur with Ronnie, even the slightest bit of tranny rotation will make finding reverse difficult and can cause grinding. Hell you can't get the car in reverse if it's even slightly rolling in the driveway!

Mark
Old 05-14-2015, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
I also note that you're not running the OE pressure plate and throwout bearing there. Looks like one of the lighter weight motorsport pressure plates that requires the lengthened throwout bearing. Not sure how many varieties those bits come in, so is it possible that one of those pieces in incorrect for the application, or maybe the pressure plate is supposed to be spaced off of the flywheel a bit?
+1. If that were the case, then it would throw off the overall geometry for the amount of clutch throw. Maybe for kicks, crawl back under the car and adjust the clutch to much tighter than the specs call for - even though it may cause constant contact of the TOB with the PP. Then see if you get complete clutch release and can shift the gears. That should narrow things down a bit. And maybe your new PP is defective, not "unloading" the diaphragm evenly.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:32 AM
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Assuming you have brakes I would think there's no need to drop the car to test Ronnie's theory.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:47 AM
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Thanks everyone,

I will try Ronnie's test first, and then I will crank in the stop bolt to press on the clutch fork lever to get the PP to pull back off the friction disc more when I press the clutch pedal and see what happens and report back.
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Old 05-14-2015, 11:13 AM
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^^^ Excellent point thar, Norm! I believe that you just earned extra time spent with Paul's Popeye arm, my friend! What say ye' to that "reward"?!?!?!
Old 05-14-2015, 11:17 AM
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Your clutch adjustment is very loose. I don't remember the correct feeler gauge you would use there when adjusting it but the smallest clearance possible will work and would be an improvement.

I zoomed in on your pic and resaved it to show where I'm talking about.
The gap where the clutch adjustment bolt contacts the throw out lever can be paper thin as long as there is still a tiny amount of clearance there so the throw out bearing isn't pulling on the diaphram spring fingers while the clutch is out when everything is at operating temp..

Old 05-14-2015, 12:13 PM
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^^^ Excellent point thar, Norm! I believe that you just earned extra time spent with Paul's Popeye arm, my friend! What say ye' to that "reward"?!?!?!

You know what they say ...






Now, as to your offer of a reward, I think Paulie's already spoken for ...

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Old 05-14-2015, 12:27 PM
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Your clutch adjustment is very loose. I don't remember the correct feeler gauge you would use there when adjusting it but the smallest clearance possible will work and would be an improvement.

I zoomed in on your pic and resaved it to show where I'm talking about.
The gap where the clutch adjustment bolt contacts the throw out lever can be paper thin as long as there is still a tiny amount of clearance there so the throw out bearing isn't pulling on the diaphram spring fingers while the clutch is out when everything is at operating temp..

Thanks Jim. It is set to 1.0mm, which is the spec (unless I am wrong, of course ). I will reduce that clearance, which I agree would give a more precise feel as you press on the pedal, but I just followed the directions...
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Old 05-14-2015, 12:35 PM
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. . .Now, as to your offer of a reward, I think Paulie's already spoken for ...
Ha! BUTT, do not underestimate the giving-capacity of the Popeye arm!!!
Old 05-14-2015, 12:45 PM
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