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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
I heard that JustTheTIPpy depresses the clutch pedal with just the tip - don't know if dat's true, though!
LOL, packin' heat....

Old 01-13-2017, 04:27 AM
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Location: Rockland Co.New York
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Talk to Chris from Turbokraft he will not steer you wrong he helped me with my clutch on my g-50/50. Good luck!
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87 930:G-50 5 Speed, Powerhaus Headers, K-27, Garretson Intercooler, RarlyL8 exhaust and 1 bar boost....
85 911:Wevo shifter,full adjustable suspension,bigger torsion bars,Carbon fiber hood,930 brakes and rims.
Old 01-13-2017, 06:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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Quattro,

I have a KEP stage I installed after my Centerforce clutch failed when the disk pucks debonded. Like Mark, I had to adjust the clutch cable to where there was nil clearance with the adjustment bolt instead of .1mm. I also had to change the adjustment bolt to a longer one to reach the small lever arm. It was like the disk lining was too thick and I had a stock 930 organic disk. Then the other problem was I could not get into reverse when the transmission oil was hot. Again it was like the disk was too thick. I did shim down the rubber pedal stop on the wooden floor board to get a little more travel which helped. Also adjusted the cable at the pedal connection. Now that I have some miles on it, I can get into reverse when the transmission is hot. The clutch has no problem holding my power and I am running Nitto NT05 315/35x17 on 11 inch rims and a Quaife differential, which makes spinning both tires difficult but it happens.
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-Dennis
1977 930 Slant, MS3 EFI, Carrera intake, Twin plug, Powerhaus headers, Magnaflow muffler, Garretson intercooler, GTX3071R
Old 01-13-2017, 06:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Las vegas
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Thanks guys, Very helpful.
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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 01-13-2017, 08:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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TurboKraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,669
About 930 4-speed clutches

Thanks Jeff, Tonger, Quack!

Long story short, we used to use a lot of KEP clutches, but over the years their quality control has definitely slipped.
* One every one installed the past 4-5 years, the pressure plate doesn't fit well in factory flywheel, the O.D. of the housing being slightly too large.
* We've had 2x where the release bearing didn't fit properly
* The clamping strength isn't consistent, and not as high as advertised -- 40-50wtq lower than we're told it will hold
* The range of motion does not seem as great

* The pedal effort is drastically higher than original
On this last point, I concede some people don't care if it is stiffer (settle down 'Knees) and are willing to live with a heavier clutch pedal. But I'd challenge everyone one of those people to spend a week with the car both ways -- one with a KEP clutch, and one with a Sachs Race Engineering (SRE) clutch -- and then still say they'd rather have the KEP.

About the only positive the KEP has going for it is price. On a 1978-88 930, a KEP aluminum pressure plate will save you approx.
$700 vs. a comparable Sachs 3.0L Turbo aluminum clutch + ring gear spacer + release bearing extension
$900 vs. a comparable SRE package (mid-level "Yellow Bird" pressure plate)
$1300 vs. a SRE 934/935 clutch package (highest level)
Yes, that is expensive, but so was your high torque engine that's routinely making over 550wtq, and you could easily drive this in L.A.'s stop-and-go traffic without the clutch wearing out your left leg.

KEP makes a tall aluminum G50 pressure plate for the 1989 Turbo and 1987-89 Carrera (original plate is iron and stupid heavy), but even with the hydraulic actuation it is much stiffer than a Sachs setup. Unfortunately, SRE discontinued their trick aluminum pressure pates for the G50 years ago, leaving only KEP to fill the gap if you wanted a lightweight clutch package...
...except now TurboKraft has adapted the 964/993 and 996/997 Turbo/GT clutch packages for the 1987-89 G50s with a standard bell housing, so owners have multiple aluminum clutch options again, as light or as heavy-duty as needed.


Centerforce re-works some of the standard Sachs road clutches internally, such as the tall housing clutches (1978-88 930, 1987-89 G50). They can achieve a little more clamping strength, withouth increasing the pedal effort much. They will generally hold the torque of a hot CIS 930, but not the torque of an EFI engine. Since they are starting with a stock part, the housing is the original heavy iron, just painted orange. The only lightweight option is the 1976-77 930 aluminum plate, but they cannot modify it internally for more clamping strength.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Location: Las vegas
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going to you're website now. I'll call when I'm ready to pull the string.
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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 01-13-2017, 01:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
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mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
Thanks Jeff, Tonger, Quack!

Long story short, we used to use a lot of KEP clutches, but over the years their quality control has definitely slipped.
* One every one installed the past 4-5 years, the pressure plate doesn't fit well in factory flywheel, the O.D. of the housing being slightly too large.
* We've had 2x where the release bearing didn't fit properly
* The clamping strength isn't consistent, and not as high as advertised -- 40-50wtq lower than we're told it will hold
* The range of motion does not seem as great

* The pedal effort is drastically higher than original
On this last point, I concede some people don't care if it is stiffer (settle down 'Knees) and are willing to live with a heavier clutch pedal. But I'd challenge everyone one of those people to spend a week with the car both ways -- one with a KEP clutch, and one with a Sachs Race Engineering (SRE) clutch -- and then still say they'd rather have the KEP.

About the only positive the KEP has going for it is price. On a 1978-88 930, a KEP aluminum pressure plate will save you approx.
$700 vs. a comparable Sachs 3.0L Turbo aluminum clutch + ring gear spacer + release bearing extension
$900 vs. a comparable SRE package (mid-level "Yellow Bird" pressure plate)
$1300 vs. a SRE 934/935 clutch package (highest level)
Yes, that is expensive, but so was your high torque engine that's routinely making over 550wtq, and you could easily drive this in L.A.'s stop-and-go traffic without the clutch wearing out your left leg.

KEP makes a tall aluminum G50 pressure plate for the 1989 Turbo and 1987-89 Carrera (original plate is iron and stupid heavy), but even with the hydraulic actuation it is much stiffer than a Sachs setup. Unfortunately, SRE discontinued their trick aluminum pressure pates for the G50 years ago, leaving only KEP to fill the gap if you wanted a lightweight clutch package...
...except now TurboKraft has adapted the 964/993 and 996/997 Turbo/GT clutch packages for the 1987-89 G50s with a standard bell housing, so owners have multiple aluminum clutch options again, as light or as heavy-duty as needed.


Centerforce re-works some of the standard Sachs road clutches internally, such as the tall housing clutches (1978-88 930, 1987-89 G50). They can achieve a little more clamping strength, withouth increasing the pedal effort much. They will generally hold the torque of a hot CIS 930, but not the torque of an EFI engine. Since they are starting with a stock part, the housing is the original heavy iron, just painted orange. The only lightweight option is the 1976-77 930 aluminum plate, but they cannot modify it internally for more clamping strength.
Chris, I commend you for being so open on all the options. Absolutely stellar, dude!
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Mark H. 1987 930, GP White, Wevo shifter, Borla exhaust, stock everything else. The result of a massive Pelicanite good will fire recovery effort. Truely an open book, ready for the slippery slopes to modification.
Old 01-13-2017, 06:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,844
Better than getting a bunch of phone calls rehashing the same advise!
Old 01-13-2017, 07:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: highland mills NY
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
Thanks Jeff, Tonger, Quack!

Long story short, we used to use a lot of KEP clutches, but over the years their quality control has definitely slipped.
* One every one installed the past 4-5 years, the pressure plate doesn't fit well in factory flywheel, the O.D. of the housing being slightly too large.
* We've had 2x where the release bearing didn't fit properly
* The clamping strength isn't consistent, and not as high as advertised -- 40-50wtq lower than we're told it will hold
* The range of motion does not seem as great

* The pedal effort is drastically higher than original
On this last point, I concede some people don't care if it is stiffer (settle down 'Knees) and are willing to live with a heavier clutch pedal. But I'd challenge everyone one of those people to spend a week with the car both ways -- one with a KEP clutch, and one with a Sachs Race Engineering (SRE) clutch -- and then still say they'd rather have the KEP.

About the only positive the KEP has going for it is price. On a 1978-88 930, a KEP aluminum pressure plate will save you approx.
$700 vs. a comparable Sachs 3.0L Turbo aluminum clutch + ring gear spacer + release bearing extension
$900 vs. a comparable SRE package (mid-level "Yellow Bird" pressure plate)
$1300 vs. a SRE 934/935 clutch package (highest level)
Yes, that is expensive, but so was your high torque engine that's routinely making over 550wtq, and you could easily drive this in L.A.'s stop-and-go traffic without the clutch wearing out your left leg.

KEP makes a tall aluminum G50 pressure plate for the 1989 Turbo and 1987-89 Carrera (original plate is iron and stupid heavy), but even with the hydraulic actuation it is much stiffer than a Sachs setup. Unfortunately, SRE discontinued their trick aluminum pressure pates for the G50 years ago, leaving only KEP to fill the gap if you wanted a lightweight clutch package...
...except now TurboKraft has adapted the 964/993 and 996/997 Turbo/GT clutch packages for the 1987-89 G50s with a standard bell housing, so owners have multiple aluminum clutch options again, as light or as heavy-duty as needed.


Centerforce re-works some of the standard Sachs road clutches internally, such as the tall housing clutches (1978-88 930, 1987-89 G50). They can achieve a little more clamping strength, withouth increasing the pedal effort much. They will generally hold the torque of a hot CIS 930, but not the torque of an EFI engine. Since they are starting with a stock part, the housing is the original heavy iron, just painted orange. The only lightweight option is the 1976-77 930 aluminum plate, but they cannot modify it internally for more clamping strength.
Have not been on in a while. Thank you I thought I was going crazy. You will hear from me soon about a new clutch
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83 sc cab turbo widebody. 3.5 liter supertec motor, B&B headers, EFI electromotive TecGT, TurboKraft GT35R billet turbo, 964 cams, WM inj, Bell full bay intercooler, Short bell housing turbo 4 speed tranny, roll bar, hargett shifter,
Old 02-01-2017, 02:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Las vegas
Posts: 6,244
Garage
OK this issue is obviously getting worse with a larger engine and efi. Doesn't hold anything over .8 bar and I'm not even properly tuned.... I have had the car on the road one day and it's slipping.
I Didn't change the clutch while the car was down because I didn't want to spend the money on it yet.. EFI was expensive. I'll have to do it for sure but am thinking about installing the .5 bar spring till I save up. I don't want to buy a crappy clutch with issues.
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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 03-16-2018, 10:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
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Location: Loxahatchee, florida
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how are they on the rebuilds? I was really happy with my KEP but the pressure plate is getting a little glazed and should be re-cut.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
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Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,839
KEP stage 2

I have run a KEP stage 2 for about 5 years with good results... Holds lots of torque. I started with a stage 1, but broke some of the springs on a hard launch, and Monty at KEP replaced it with a stage 2 at no charge. I presently have my engine out doing a ECU upgrade, so I had a local clutch shop re surface the PP and flywheel, and rebuild my Sacs stock disc for the second time with Kevlar/metallic. this combo seems to hold well for me. Pedal effort is acceptable to me. Philip


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Old 03-16-2018, 01:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
Scottsdale Arizona USA
 
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Location: Scottsdale, Arizona USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattrorunner View Post
OK this issue is obviously getting worse with a larger engine and efi. Doesn't hold anything over .8 bar and I'm not even properly tuned.... I have had the car on the road one day and it's slipping.
I Didn't change the clutch while the car was down because I didn't want to spend the money on it yet.. EFI was expensive. I'll have to do it for sure but am thinking about installing the .5 bar spring till I save up. I don't want to buy a crappy clutch with issues.
Hi Quattrorunner, I may have sold you that clutch for the 915 back in the day. Hope that served you well upto the 930. Congrats on the EFI Power!

Now for the the new setup I would suggest sticking with the Sachs brand.

Few important notes and reading through the reviews:
+ Inspection and read of your used components, flywheel, disc, pressure cover, ring gear, releaser, fork, guide tube and cable will tell you allot and help you select the the correct parts. IMO it's best to get apart and inspect and then develop / optimize the parts list.
+ It is really common for there to be mismatches with the clutch disc and pressure plates. There are disc thickness and other differences. Mixing up brands and performance covers / discs can get you in trouble. Also KEP or others trying to adapt and quality control all the variations is not so easy.
+ 77 is a split year with the clutch cables.
+ The earlier starter ring gear has 3 additional holes that allow clearance of the limit pins. This clearance is needed on the short covers.
+ The performance covers have 3 or thicker limit straps which really helps durability.
+ Trying to one up the engineering on the Sachs parts to save some bucks isn't worth it in the long run in my experience.

So the standard clutch is out so would suggest:
SACHS 88 3082 999 594 - RUF 5 speed cover and needs the stock (930 116 014 02) spring hub disc and releaser. You should be good safely upto 600 ft/lbs.
Currently ~$1500 range

The next cover Sach Performance 883083 999574 (934 / 935) comes with preinstalled release bearing and is ONLY for use with Sachs Performance 881861 999615 - Clutch disc. Bit more cost and stiffer pedal but good for 650+ ftlbs tq.

Hope this helps!
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philip j View Post
I have run a KEP stage 2 for about 5 years with good results... Holds lots of torque............. Pedal effort is acceptable to me. Philip
What Philip failed to mention, is he is a powerlifter and competes in strongman competitions.....

On a serious note, GJF posted a slave cylinder that exhibits 30% less pedal effort.

Man, I wished I had bought that one instead of the OEM one when mine crapped out!
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Las vegas
Posts: 6,244
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraftday View Post
Hi Quattrorunner, I may have sold you that clutch for the 915 back in the day. Hope that served you well upto the 930. Congrats on the EFI Power!

Now for the the new setup I would suggest sticking with the Sachs brand.

Few important notes and reading through the reviews:
+ Inspection and read of your used components, flywheel, disc, pressure cover, ring gear, releaser, fork, guide tube and cable will tell you allot and help you select the the correct parts. IMO it's best to get apart and inspect and then develop / optimize the parts list.
+ It is really common for there to be mismatches with the clutch disc and pressure plates. There are disc thickness and other differences. Mixing up brands and performance covers / discs can get you in trouble. Also KEP or others trying to adapt and quality control all the variations is not so easy.
+ 77 is a split year with the clutch cables.
+ The earlier starter ring gear has 3 additional holes that allow clearance of the limit pins. This clearance is needed on the short covers.
+ The performance covers have 3 or thicker limit straps which really helps durability.
+ Trying to one up the engineering on the Sachs parts to save some bucks isn't worth it in the long run in my experience.

So the standard clutch is out so would suggest:
SACHS 88 3082 999 594 - RUF 5 speed cover and needs the stock (930 116 014 02) spring hub disc and releaser. You should be good safely upto 600 ft/lbs.
Currently ~$1500 range

The next cover Sach Performance 883083 999574 (934 / 935) comes with preinstalled release bearing and is ONLY for use with Sachs Performance 881861 999615 - Clutch disc. Bit more cost and stiffer pedal but good for 650+ ftlbs tq.

Hope this helps!
This inline what other reputable folks have told me as well...
Thanks

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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 03-21-2018, 07:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
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