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Scottsdale Arizona USA
 
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Location: Scottsdale, Arizona USA
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EFI for sure without question naturally.

If you want 600+hp then the new manifold needed.

The origins of this conversion to a stock CIS car was well documented some time ago with a partnership of Pat Williams and Bob Holcombe of MODE. The injector block conversion manifolds are still produced and available from PWR/MODE. There is a masterful evolution of that system engineered by TurboKraft.

I would recomend getting an estimate from both of them, Pat and Chris for the hardware / software system approach.

The e30s would hate to see anyone let go of but that would be a wise way to come up with half the funds.

Start the journey!
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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been doing a little reading while on vacation. not fun reading on the phone.
finding out there is a LOT I don't know and a lot of questions about.
I need to learn terms and parameters and how they interact for one.
I am going to go all the way and do the ignition with the option to go twin plug.
once the EFI is all done I will see what I can do next.
is there some place that has good reading for this.
I have downloaded the MS manual just to get an idea of what is involved.
also considering the AEM system.
I have seen where some have the "auto learn" mode that sets things up based on the AFR's you are looking for.

here are some things I think I need from the system.
sequential injector firing
MAP
a true TPS
cam position sensor
knock sensors.
engine temp
air temp
barometric pressure

ignition side
should I use coil on plug coils?

some questions so far but I will keep looking
what is dead time for the injectors. is that the time they are off?
VE kpa. that is manifold vacuum but I don't know how to relate it to anything like RPM, engine demand/load
how fuel pressure relates to injectors.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 06-26-2017, 06:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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T77911s,

email me
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Last edited by turbobrat930; 06-26-2017 at 09:00 AM..
Old 06-26-2017, 06:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
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turborat, I will call you, just waiting til I get a bit more knowledge so I can talk to you.

I am getting excited about doing this.
starting to learn some of
this stuff and realizing just how adjustable this is, but like music equipment and what I tell people that don't under stand what they are buying. the more knobs it has the more knobs that can be set wrong.

got a grasp on dead time, fuel pressure, I had the fear of too big an injector and idling problems but now I actually understand why. wasted spark. not sure why you would go to the trouble to twin plug then go wasted spark. I always thought the benefit was to provide a better flame front to reduce spark knock and allow for less advance.
still working on VE and Kpa

downloaded the AEM and MS manual, I want to read them and get a pretty good understanding of the systems.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 06-27-2017, 11:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m42racer View Post
You need to understand then fundamental work of the ignition system.

Its to generate temperature inside the combustion chamber. The spark plug initiates the flame or start of the burn but its temperature that ignites the mixture. The more temperature the more the combustion intensity and the quicker the event. This is why Inductive Ignition has a very long burn event. The energy released within the chamber is a lot less than CDI as its based upon the coil winding size and therefore the temperature created is less.

Many other variables have an effect on the engines performance but none as much as Ignition. Its the very last function before combustion occurs.

Ignition advance lead changes when the ignition event happens. This can be set by start, mid or final. This can help as it starts the ignition when cylinder pressures may be greater at the time of complete or near complete combustion , hopefully after TDC. This then pushes on the Piston with greater force. More torque is then created.

Now think of the ignition timing, cam timing and compression ratio all "fixed" at the time of complete combustion. What else could you improve upon to make the explosion greater.

Too many take the ignition system for granted. "As long as the engine does not misfire, its good to go". The Ignition is a huge player in the way an engine performance can be
influenced.

All we are trying to do is to create the highest level of explosion within the cylinder hopefully under some sort of control. We create the pressure by the swept and compressed volume, the mechanical ability to pump as much air into the engine in a given time with the fueling volume based on a safe AFR number. The rest is up to the amount of temperature we can induce from the Ignition system.
I've read this like 3 times, and it doesn't seem to match my experience.

If ignition like CDI makes great throttle response, why do the 965's with CDI and CIS rev so slowly?

I guarantee you, my engine out revs those engines easily. No disrespect to them though.........just making a point.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
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My 930 engine build incorporated twin plug electronic ignition, cams, SC cams, mild porting, and a small bump in static compression ratio...but retained CIS. For my power goals I never saw the need for EFI and since CIS wasn't broken I wasn't prepared to take the time or $ to "fix" it. Everyone who drove that car loved its performance. I don't think electronic fueling alone would have been a great improvement, but obviously would open the door for additional upgrades and HP.

My race car (naturally aspirated) has Motec EFI, twin plug CDI ignition, ITBs, lightweight flywheel and PP, and hot cams. It revs like a motorcycle.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
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For me personally, it's more about what the ECU can do behind the scenes rather than things like fuel and spark control. I enjoyed my car with CIS and it ran well. However, having a programmable engine controller allows me to setup things like fail safes and other safety measures not normally available on a CIS engine.

For instance, if I lose oil pressure or it drops below a set minimum value, my engine will shut off automatically. No need to look for a red lamp and reach for the key and not catch it in time. If my fuel pump begins to fail or an injector and my engine leans out beyond a predefined limit, my engine shuts off. If my charge temps increase, I can increase the amount of fuel to help bring the temps back down and avoid detonation.

There are a myriad of additional features beyond the fuel and ignition control, along with better driveability, that are often over looked and not mentioned when considering the change over to EFI. Add the fact that you can have the data being logged constantly and in the event of an issue, you can go back and see EXACTLY what was happening, to me that is what makes the investment worthwhile.
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Old 06-27-2017, 04:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
turborat, I will call you, just waiting til I get a bit more knowledge so I can talk to you.

I am getting excited about doing this.
starting to learn some of
this stuff and realizing just how adjustable this is, but like music equipment and what I tell people that don't under stand what they are buying. the more knobs it has the more knobs that can be set wrong.

got a grasp on dead time, fuel pressure, I had the fear of too big an injector and idling problems but now I actually understand why. wasted spark. not sure why you would go to the trouble to twin plug then go wasted spark. I always thought the benefit was to provide a better flame front to reduce spark knock and allow for less advance.
still working on VE and Kpa

downloaded the AEM and MS manual, I want to read them and get a pretty good understanding of the systems.
You are well on your way to understanding this whole EFI thing.
You should at least call Richard Clewett at Clewett Engineering to get his input. I've seen him tune a motor quickly and effectively remotely thru TeamViewer. I was beyond impressed to get such great tuning in a few hours with Richard on his computer controlling the engine management system while the car was being driven. Price of a good dinner for four at a nice restaurant.
M2C
Johan
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
here are some things I think I need from the system.

sequential injector firing
MAP
a true TPS
cam position sensor
knock sensors nice, but not a requirement
engine temp cylinder head temp
air temp
barometric pressure nice, but not a requirement, especially if you use a system like AEM's Infinity with VE tuning

ignition side
should I use coil on plug coils? if twin plug, we recommend it highly. Nice on single plug, too. But single plug it's also easy to lock down the distributor and upgrade the CDI and coil, we've had this support 555whp. Some people really prefer CDI tuning.

some questions so far but I will keep looking
what is dead time for the injectors. is that the time they are off?
VE kpa. that is manifold vacuum but I don't know how to relate it to anything like RPM, engine demand/load
how fuel pressure relates to injectors. sequential injection usually runs higher fuel pressure, 3.5bar and up. 60#/660cc injectors and a 3.5bar regulator will support 500whp

Quote:
Originally Posted by '76 911S 3.0 View Post
For me personally, it's more about what the ECU can do behind the scenes rather than things like fuel and spark control. I enjoyed my car with CIS and it ran well. However, having a programmable engine controller allows me to setup things like fail safes and other safety measures not normally available on a CIS engine.

For instance, if I lose oil pressure or it drops below a set minimum value, my engine will shut off automatically. No need to look for a red lamp and reach for the key and not catch it in time. If my fuel pump begins to fail or an injector and my engine leans out beyond a predefined limit, my engine shuts off. If my charge temps increase, I can increase the amount of fuel to help bring the temps back down and avoid detonation.

There are a myriad of additional features beyond the fuel and ignition control, along with better driveability, that are often over looked and not mentioned when considering the change over to EFI. Add the fact that you can have the data being logged constantly and in the event of an issue, you can go back and see EXACTLY what was happening, to me that is what makes the investment worthwhile.
Nice -- this sums it up well.
* multiple programmable failsafe controls
* precise control of fuel delivery
* infinitely adjustable ignition
* improved throttle response, torque, driveability
* data logging

I'd add integrated boost mapping with feedback control, closed loop Lambda with feedback control, doubling the mpg...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
A few things one should study (I say this lightly, there's not a ton to understand, just the basics) on top of EMS in electrical theory IMO, is:
1. Ground loops and how to avoid them
2. Grounding period
3. EMI/EMF noise
Wiring is where we see many DIY conversions go badly. I'll second Tippy's recommendation that you do your reading on this, especially (1) and (3). Never assume that how Porsche wired something means that it was necessarily the best way it could have been done.


The conversion hardware is universal, insomuch as it will work with any engine management system.
Find an experienced tuner you can work with, who is proficient in one of the widely-used systems out there, and go with his recommendation.

I'd wager that at this time, there's more professional shops out there with proficiency in a major EFI system then there are ones with proficiency in CIS.
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Old 06-29-2017, 11:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
I'd wager that at this time, there's more professional shops out there with proficiency in a major EFI system then there are ones with proficiency in CIS.
AMEN


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Old 06-29-2017, 02:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
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