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Success

Success.............appears that way!!!

I can not believe what I am seeing.

Today I installed the K27 7006 for the 5th time.

This is the view down the up-pipe from the compressor to the intercooler.




And this is how it has looked the 4 times previously after 20 minutes run time.




Now to reinstall the intercooler and scavenge circuit (was cycling through a bucket) and take it for a spin.
Old 09-28-2017, 08:29 PM
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Well, here is hoping.
So what is the difference? You used a different builder. Do they have any idea what was wrong?
Fingers crossed.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 09-28-2017, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Well, here is hoping.
So what is the difference? You used a different builder. Do they have any idea what was wrong?
Fingers crossed.
Alan
Said they replaced the rings/seals and cannot explain the difference.

However all may not be well.

On second run the engine got very smokey. Pulled the I/C and compressor side was dry and clean. But I am not sure where the smoke is coming from. Some is definitely from the exhaust and I am going to remove the muffler today to check the turbine side. The smoke also could be from leaks landing on the heat exchangers.
The thing I did not like is that when it gets to operating temp which is about half on the temp gauge it is sounding a little tapperty.
Old 09-29-2017, 11:53 AM
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Removed the muffler and found the turbine side dry.
There must be residual oil in the muffler as the outlet is dampish and the part that bolts to the turbo appeared dry.

It looks as if oil is coming from the rocker box on my drivers side (RHD) between the oil cooler, and dripping onto the heat exchanger.

Not too sure what to do here, so any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks Steve.
Old 09-29-2017, 07:10 PM
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Hey Steve - nice about the turbo, and regarding the oil leak, remove the lower rocker cover and see if one of the rocker arm shafts has walked in it's bore (take a pic and post it) - when that happens, oil leaks past it and and if it walks enough, you will start to hear increased "tapping" noise (like you mentioned). It would be a good idea to check that before you run the engine much more.

If you do a search for "walking rocker arm shafts", especially in the 911 and engine building forums, you'll find many threads on the subject (with plenty of pics).
Old 09-29-2017, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Hey Steve - nice about the turbo, and regarding the oil leak, remove the lower rocker cover and see if one of the rocker arm shafts has walked in it's bore (take a pic and post it) - when that happens, oil leaks past it and and if it walks enough, you will start to hear increased "tapping" noise (like you mentioned). It would be a good idea to check that before you run the engine much more.

If you do a search for "walking rocker arm shafts", especially in the 911 and engine building forums, you'll find many threads on the subject (with plenty of pics).
Great info.
Thanks mate.
Old 09-29-2017, 09:46 PM
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If the rocker shaft moves all the way it'll make some sounds that would frighten you. Like the engine is done. Don't let them get to that point.
Glad the turbo is finally clean.
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattrorunner View Post
If the rocker shaft moves all the way it'll make some sounds that would frighten you. Like the engine is done. Don't let them get to that point.
Glad the turbo is finally clean.
It sure has been a demoralising experience at times, and without the pelicans I doubt I could have got this far.
I started my 930 again after replacing the muffler today, and quattrorunner the sounds from the right side are indeed frightening. Tomorrow I will remove the rocker cover and post some pics.

I am a little concerned that some damage may have been done when turning the engine over which resulted in the hydro lock which I have mentioned in previous posts.

Is it possible to have bent valves in doing this or damaged the rockers ?
Old 09-30-2017, 01:36 AM
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SBK,

I would assume that both valves must be closed for hydrolock to occur so the rockers would be loose about 0.004" and probably not damaged form that. It is common to have the rocker arms walk out of position because they are difficult to tighten and measure the appropriate torque.

Rahl

Edit: Turbokraft sells RSR O-rings to help seal and some kind of "keeper" to prevent the rocker arms for walking out of position.

Last edited by 356911930; 09-30-2017 at 08:39 AM.. Reason: additional info
Old 09-30-2017, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 356911930 View Post
SBK,

I would assume that both valves must be closed for hydrolock to occur so the rockers would be loose about 0.004" and probably not damaged form that. It is common to have the rocker arms walk out of position because they are difficult to tighten and measure the appropriate torque.

Rahl

Edit: Turbokraft sells RSR O-rings to help seal and some kind of "keeper" to prevent the rocker arms for walking out of position.
Thank you.
Old 09-30-2017, 09:18 AM
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Rocker arm shaft pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Hey Steve - nice about the turbo, and regarding the oil leak, remove the lower rocker cover and see if one of the rocker arm shafts has walked in it's bore (take a pic and post it) - when that happens, oil leaks past it and and if it walks enough, you will start to hear increased "tapping" noise (like you mentioned). It would be a good idea to check that before you run the engine much more.

If you do a search for "walking rocker arm shafts", especially in the 911 and engine building forums, you'll find many threads on the subject (with plenty of pics).
I removed the lower cover and this is what I found.

Any thoughts?







Old 09-30-2017, 04:04 PM
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Found the oil leak.
It appears to be coming from the front rocker shaft.
From the side the allen wrench is in.
However I can not tighten or loosen these nuts.
So from the previous pics I do not understand where the noise will be coming from.

Old 09-30-2017, 06:11 PM
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Steve, the ones with the end cap sticking just slightly proud of the bore look normal - is that how the one that is behind the oil cooler looks?

As far as the noise is concerned - look closely at the cam lobes . . . where the rocker pads touch them (the best you can - tough to see a whole lot with rocker arms installed) - you're looking to see if there is any scoring that would indicate a plugged cam spray bar (that can cause noise).

Also, if you are familiar with how to find TDC for each cylinder, you can do so and check the lash of the exposed rockers - or at least check by hand that there is a little play between the rocker foot and valve stem, and not a ridiculous amount (the lash spec is .004" +/- .002 . . . so in other words .002-.006 is acceptable per Porsche). Way too big of gap would cause noise, but it would have to be nutzo big to sound alarming.
Old 09-30-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Steve, the ones with the end cap sticking just slightly proud of the bore look normal - is that how the one that is behind the oil cooler looks?

As far as the noise is concerned - look closely at the cam lobes . . . where the rocker pads touch them (the best you can - tough to see a whole lot with rocker arms installed) - you're looking to see if there is any scoring that would indicate a plugged cam spray bar (that can cause noise).

Also, if you are familiar with how to find TDC for each cylinder, you can do so and check the lash of the exposed rockers - or at least check by hand that there is a little play between the rocker foot and valve stem, and not a ridiculous amount (the lash spec is .004" +/- .002 . . . so in other words .002-.006 is acceptable per Porsche). Way too big of gap would cause noise, but it would have to be nutzo big to sound alarming.
Hi rawknees,
I found TDC on this cylinder and the rocker arm appears to have some sloppy side movement and makes a distinct metallic sound unlike the others. I have shot some footage and will post it in a minute.
Steve.
Old 09-30-2017, 06:35 PM
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So maybe a valve adjust then.
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Old 09-30-2017, 06:49 PM
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Rocker arm bushing might be shot.

Rahl
Old 09-30-2017, 07:18 PM
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Side movement

So this is the footage I tried posting earlier but did not seem to load.

There is a lot of side to side movement with a metallic sound unlike the other rockers.

Also there does not appear to be a gap between the rocker and valve.

The lobes on the cam appear to have a spotless mirror surface, bar one but not this one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6rU6WZ1A4
Old 09-30-2017, 08:03 PM
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Ya looks like maybe new bushings in the rockers and maybe new shafts?
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattrorunner View Post
Ya looks like maybe new bushings in the rockers and maybe new shafts?
OK,
Is that going to be something that I can do ?

And is it possible to do while the engine is still in the car, I expect that to do this I should do all of them including the intake rockers as well.
Old 09-30-2017, 09:36 PM
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Steve, I just looked at your vid - more than ten years ago, my 930's engine had a troubling noise (sounded like a marble bouncing on a steel plate), and at one point, I found that exact same thing you have with that rocker (even the same rocker on my engine), thought, "I found the problem", went to all the trouble of replacing the rocker and shaft with new parts, only to find the same amount of side to side play, and the noise was not eliminated.

So what I'm saying is, that if the rocker is not flopping around on the shaft (like its bushing is severely worn out of round), I would leave it alone.

It is a bad enough job to replace the rockers and shafts with the engine on a stand (mainly due to limited space for tools and the fact that the shaft fasteners will likely be difficult to remove due to corrosion) - would be a nightmare with engine still in the car. For example, one of the allen bolts on mine immediately rounded - no way to get a drill in there to drill the head off, so a mechanic friend of mine had the brilliant idea to drive a shotened allen bit into the remains of the bolt head with an air hammer while turning the 1/4 drive ratchet at the same time, and it worked. Imagine trying that with the engine in the car!

If it were mine, I would do a valve lash measurement on all the valves, adjusting only the ones that were necessary, and then monitor the noise and oil leak. The "backside method" for measuring lash works very well and allows you to use regular feeler blades (no special tool required). There is a Pelican tech article on this method, plus lots of help available here, buttofcourse.

Maybe you could put the cover back on, run the engine and try to take a video of the noise?

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 09-30-2017 at 10:00 PM..
Old 09-30-2017, 09:53 PM
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