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Alan L's Avatar
 
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I am puzzled tho as to how I should achieve 1400ml/30 sec injector flow when the pump spec is 1150 with no fuel head pressure.
Does this mean the pumps need to be upgraded once you use an 007 FD?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-27-2017, 03:09 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Fuel flow minimum spec with Euro fuel distributor is ~1150cc/30sec. I didn't catch some of the important details in the earlier posts, such as you are seeing 1400cc/30sec which is what I use for minimum spec on the -007. Are your pumps OEM? What do you mean by no fuel head pressure, just the pumps blowing into a bucket? If so that is too low volume. Theoretically you should run out of fuel when the fuel exiting the injectors empties the flow to the point that no fuel is returning to the tank, 100% going to the cylinders. This isn't practical of course. Have you tested flow at the injectors? Curious to see what that figure is.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-27-2017, 07:39 PM
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Brian, correct me if I am wrong - but the Euro spec flow of 1150/30 sec is without the FD pressure. You take the fuel hose from the pumps as they enter the FD?
I have not measured at injectors - because I have had no numbers to compare to. If you say I need 1400/30 sec at injectors, I will measure this flow. That basically was my original query - some reference numbers at injectors or some other point to compare the 007 head to. As far as I know the pumps are factory. I have never had to inspect them to this point.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-28-2017, 01:20 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Let me check my notes which are at the shop, I haven't had to verify flow at the injectors on a -007 for a while and don't want to confuse the issue of pump volume versus injector volume. I jump back and forth daily in a range that includes 2.4L 911 CIS with one tiny pump to modified 3.6L Turbo 965 CIS with dual -044 pumps; generates a lot of numbers cramming up my brain, which is in dyer need of more RAM.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-28-2017, 01:55 PM
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My RAM decreases each year and bottle of wine. So it is in need of a new upgrade.
But if my 1150/30 sec pump spec, as per manual is not enough, I suspect I will need to upgrade pumps. In which case, what to? This is basically heading in the direction of the original query - trying to verify where I seem to be coming up short fuel wise.
What I haven't done yet is check each pump - with the pressure gauge between the two. From memory the pressure differential should be 1.5 - 2.0 bar. I am back at the car and my manuals in a couple of days so keen to try and resolve it then if possible.
But the only pump flow data I can find is as per manual which is 1150/30 sec before the FD (from memory) . I have 1400. If I need 1400 at the injectors (quite possible) I will need bigger pumps I suspect.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-29-2017, 03:13 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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It is possible to achieve 400WHP on two OEM pumps but they have to be healthy. Quite often the pumps are aged, and we seldom replace an old pump with OEM on a performance build. I use a -044 in the rear with OEM up front pushing on the gray slant and red rocket. Dual -044s are overkill in my opinion but have been used on a 3.6L 965 with no ill effects. Also check your battery and alternator, if they are flaking out weird things happen. You need a solid 12V minimum at each pump when the engine is running, more is better.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-29-2017, 04:27 AM
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1400cc/30 sec injector flow rate?

not sure if CIS flow rate can cross to EFI, not sure why not but I did a check for a 400HP motor,
it called for 455cc/min which is 227cc/30 sec.
227 x 6 is about 1365cc/30sec.
this is at 100%duty cycle. the flow rate goes to 1700 for an 80%DC.

the early FP was 1170cc and the later FP is 1500cc.

I was told by larry that the FD factory setting is about 20%below max, if so that is about 185cc/30 or 373cc/min. (based on 1400cc)
at 80% in the calculator a 370cc injector flow rate supports a 260HP engine.

at 100%DC a 370cc/min flow rate supports a 325 HP engine which would support a stock engine.

so based on 100%DC and 1400cc/30 that comes out to 466cc/MIN (at the injector)which based on the calculator should support 410HP.

there was a BSFC figure in the calculator, I entered the suggested value that gave the highest flow needed (.65)


can you post you CP under boost? 2.9?
you may want to drop this pressure
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:48 AM
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Thanks guys. We may be getting close to the answer I am looking for. I am seriously beginning to question my fuel pumps as the limiting factor. I think at 1400cc/30 sec (over 6 injectors) this is very close to the 227/30 sec calculation(above) (1360). So it looks like I need to be measuring 1400/30 sec minimum at the injectors. I will check this and the CP at boost. If I am getting 1400 at the FD without 7 bar pressure I seriously doubt I can get near 1400 at the injectors.
Now that I have access to my manual, I see as T77911s notes, there are two fuel pump delivery rates quoted. The 1150/30 sec and for type 68 engine 1500cc.
My engine is actually a type 68 (in an 82 chassis). I am not sure how they arrive at two fuel rates for say a type 60 vs 68 engine. Did they have different pumps?
So at 1400cc FD as I have measured, I may be down on flow. This fits the scenario better than any other explanation. Anyone know why a 68 engine needs more fuel flow? Same displacement and HP as a type 60.
I have a spare (new ) rear pump. Would fitting an 044 pump up front work with the new rear pump fitted?
I am about to try and source some fittings to check the pump differential pressures.
Thanks for the help guys.
Will post some results - hopefully in next few days.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-30-2017, 04:58 PM
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I have ordered an 044 pump and will fit at the rear, and check flows after that. I think I need an adaptor if my memory of old threads on this is correct.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-30-2017, 07:36 PM
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For the rear pump M14x1.5 to M18x1.5 fitting if my records are corrects.
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Many projects on the way...
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:34 PM
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OK, thanks. Hopefully I can get such a beast here down under.
T77911s - my boost dump is 2 bar!!. Down from 3.4 to 1.4 at 0.5 bar boost. I must have put a soft spring in the WUR at some earlier time - I have been grappling with this issue for some time.
So everything is beginning to point to fuel pumps.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-30-2017, 08:58 PM
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yea looking back I see you have quite a few posts with this issue.

I would do a flow test at WOT out of the injectors. one to see what you have now and 2 to see if the new pump actually makes a difference. the injector flow is what matters, not what you have going into the FD.

I thought somewhere you said you were at 350HP. yea you are probably at the limit of the FD/pumps.

I put in 450hP and that came up with almost 1600cc. you want a little head room I would think.

I was wanting a set of spare fuel lines so I could bend them so that it was easier to put the injectors into bottles so that I could do more testing, but I don't want to spend what people want for them, even and set of the skinny lines.

1.4 is pretty low.

how much boost are you running?
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Old 10-31-2017, 04:20 AM
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I have 380 hp at the wheels at 0.8 bar boost. I have EBC and do run up to 1 bar.
I agree that the injector flow is what counts - thats what the engine sees. Just that I was lacking any comparative numbers. I will have my flow figures in a few hrs. And the 044 pump is on the way, so I can repeat all this in a couple of days and see what difference there is.
But you would have to think that the free flow FD/pump numbers would need to be near 2 litres/30 sec to achieve these injector figures. I find the injector lines a bit tricky too - but use some squat 150ml bottles that sneak in OK. I think we are on the right track here.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-31-2017, 11:11 AM
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OK, I have 1600cc/min at the injectors, and around 2700cc/min at the FD with the current set up. This is with the WUR pressure around 3 bar - which is where it should be on boost.
So I should have enough fuel?
What I did find was quite erratic flow numbers in the 6 ports. It may be possible I can open some ports more. Altho, previously I had them all balanced nicely when the FD was installed. I can but try and open some ports some more. Will keep you posted.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-31-2017, 01:20 PM
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OK, I am a bit stumped. I have one FD port screwed right in (max flow) and struggling to balance the other 5 and some erratic results. This is pretty much where I was from the get go once I fitted the 007 head. I have a gauge hooked on to the WUR and did notice a curious thing. At idle air plate setting (all fuel cycling back to tank), I am at around 3.2-3.4 bar. This is just using the heating element in the WUR. The engine is not running - IC and all associated plumbing out right now to get at injector flows. When I load the pumps up at WOT to test injector flows the WUR pressure goes up to 4-4.2 bar. This won't be the exact case in real life because the boost dump will pull it down. But it may not be helping to have the WUR pressure trying to increase by 0.5bar at WOT. Any ideas what would cause that?
I am a bit stumped right now. Cannot really get these flows to balance well - winding out successively on 5 ports and 1 port screwed right in. And somewhat erratic results. But total flows suggest I should have enough fuel to support my HP - right?
Blew air thru the return line - can hear bubbles burping out in the tank.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-31-2017, 03:16 PM
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PS - tried swapping injectors on the sluggish port. No difference.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-31-2017, 03:17 PM
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Back late to the party, had a couple busy days. Yes I verified in my notes that the 1400cc/30sec figure was for the -007 at the injectors. When testing the system we use the injector volume, when testing the pumps we use the fuel distributor inlet volume. These numbers overlap when you are looking at anything from 2.4L 911 to modified 3.3L 930.
Reading your last post, you are saying that at idle flow rate the WCP is 3.4bar (50psi) and plate down WCP shoots up to 4.2bar (61psi)? Can you apply 1.0bar pressure to the WUR side port and record the BoostCP? It needs to get down around 2.0bar to feed your power level I would think.
The -007 does not function well if adjusted wide open. You get into tuning and balance issues. You might back the settings to where they were previously (if you have them marked or recorded the revolutions) and see what happens. As you know, each port is not an island, movement of one port affects the flow of the other 5. Lets get the BoostCP number first and go from there.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-31-2017, 06:18 PM
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Hi Brian - can you clarify 1400cc/30 sec, or 1400cc/min. I am getting 1640cc/min (injector) on my last reading. If I understand right, 1400/min is what you are looking for as a minimum.
I can confirm as you get to the max flow in the 007 head, things get a bit wobbly. I have spent near the whole day trying to calibrate it. You end up in a dead zone where each port does not respond to any more adjustment. So you need to know where each port is regarding the dead zone - whether to adjust the other 5 or persist with #6. Multiply that 6 times over and it gets messy. I have got the FD close now to where it does respond to each tweek on all 6. Another couple of shots should get it there. That is how it came back when modded to 007. It was in the sweet spot, and I opened it up another 10% or so, looking for more fuel. Hopefully I will have it calibrated and stable in a couple more hrs of effort. I am close now and recorded 1640cc/min with those settings.
As for the WUR, I am thinking of dropping the WP by 0.3-0.2 bar. This will take it to 3.0bar. But this WP setting is just via the heating element. There is a lot of engine heat soak that takes place when on the track. I will run the engine with the pressure gauge on the WUR in place once I get the FD sorted again, but plan to run the WUR slightly lower. I think I will change the boost spring in the WUR tho. Not that happy with 2 bar drop in CP on boost - worried for the diaphragm more than anything.
But I am not sure any of this has given me more fuel at 5500rpm. I can verify I have more than 1400cc/min at injectors - but I had 1600 on prior settings. So still a puzzle. the 044 pump will be here shortly. While I have the beast on the hoist and fuel system apart I am thinking to install it anyway. But my fuel numbers look OK?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-31-2017, 08:47 PM
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the electric heat to the WUR is plenty. once heated enough for the metal strip to lift off the spring, heating it more will not make a difference.

when testing the flow and pushing down on the AFM by hand, CP does not matter.
changing the WCP will not effect boost AFR at all. that is strictly the job of boost CP.
I would set the WCP to spec. boost CP will still be the same.
I have set my WCP all over the place, made no difference for boost AFR or CP.
system pressure will make a difference. I saw this statement about fuel pumps.
"if pressure goes up, volume goes down".

with the mods listed you should have more than 380HP. if you are having fueling issues that may be limiting peak HP.

use the injector flow calculators as a guide. flow is flow and the amount needed to support a given HP is the same no matter which system you are using.
here is the one I have been using, there are lots out there.

fuel injector flow rates

I figure you are at least 450 at the flywheel.
100% DC comes to 511cc/min which is about 3000/min or 1500/ 30sec.
only thing with EFI systems is fuel pressure changes injector size so I looked into BSFC. basically the amount of fuel needed per HP.
the amount needed for turbo engine seems to vary a bit, so I used .65 per HP and 450HP. that comes out to about 300lbs per min. converting that to cc that is about 500cc/min per injector which is 3000cc/min total or 1500cc/30 sec. earlier I suggested 1600cc/30s to give you a little head room.

BTW, I am learning a lot from your issues.

based on what I have done with flow testing my FD and your situation, I would open all 6 ports up to max. flow the head (injectors) to figure out which one is the lowest and set the other 5 to that one.
after you get the WOT settings I would do a flow test with the AFM open about 1-2mm to simulate idle. this test takes a long time to get enough fuel to compare. put a battery charger on the batt while doing it. you want even flow for a good idle. small adjustments here should not matter at WOT.
I make a wedge to put under the bar that goes over the sensor plate to hold it open.

then I would do a test at cruise.

yea all this testing sucks because of gas smell. I used a fan to keep fresh air coming in.
I would like to do more flow tests but getting the injectors in a place to get bottles under them Is worse thing about it. last time I actually pulled the engine and set the CIS system back in on a stand to hold everything.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-01-2017, 05:06 AM
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here is another site that may be of interest

Fuel Flow Calculations for Horsepower – performancedevelopments.com
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-01-2017, 10:26 AM
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