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Thanks for the flow calcs. Will try them. Yes agree - around 420-450HP at flywheel would be my guess. Well, if I am supposed to have 1600cc/30 sec, I have definitely run out of fuel.
What I did do when I got the 007 head back was as you suggest. I opened one port so I got about 10-20% more than the balanced flow it came back with. Then set about raising the other 5 to match. All went well until I got to the last port and could not match the flow. So I had to dial the others back. So it is basically set at the max flow I can balance. But it does seem to be unstable like this - as Brian has suggested. I have had erratic results this time around. And there seems to be a big variance between the ports in terms of what they will flow. Some ports I am consistently trying to dial back (20% above others that will give no more). But I am near getting it back to a stable balanced flow. Looks like I may need to try the 044 pump after all.
I think I have put a soft spring in the WUR for the boost drop - I have a range of springs I had made up. Some of them were harder than original - because initially I was struggling with the boost dump. Then I struggled with not enough fuel - over the progression of mods. So I am fairly sure I have a very soft spring in the WUR to get 2 bar drop in CP at 0.5 bar boost. 1 bar boost gave no more drop. So the WUR is basically wide open with this spring. I will put a harder spring in while I can get at everything - maybe 1 bar drop. If the heat soak won't make any difference to CP, I am already 0.5 bar below WP spec.
Thanks for the thoughts. Just want to get the FD nicely balanced near max flow right now. But there definitely seems to be a sweet spot where the tweeks all work predictably. Then you seem to move in to a zone where more turns on the adjusters make no difference. You need to know each port is in the sweet spot zone to balance them. Previously on other heads it has taken me no more than a couple of goes to balance the flows. I have spent near a full day on this one. Because it was past the point where all ports would respond.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 11:47 AM
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According to these calcs - and the ones I did via the link above, I am well short on fuel. As you say - I need around 1200-1400cc/30 sec. I am getting around 800.

"Yes I verified in my notes that the 1400cc/30sec figure was for the -007 at the injectors. When testing the system we use the injector volume, when testing the pumps we use the fuel distributor inlet volume. These numbers overlap when you are looking at anything from 2.4L 911 to modified 3.3L 930."

Brian - with your FD flow of 1150cc/30 sec, can you achieve 1400cc/30 sec at injectors? Something not adding up here.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 12:26 PM
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Well I have never had such a battle trying to calibrate a fuel head. Another half day and it is as good as it will be. 10% is about as good as I can get it. Basically some ports are maxed out on restricting flow and others maxed out on providing flow. Basically there seems to be a big variance in the ports. I was near pulling the FD apart. Other than crud in there tho, not sure what else I could do to it.
1,2,3 are stable every run to within 1-2cc. 4,5,6 are bouncing around all over the place. Get them near right and a final small tweek on one, and another one goes haywire - 20% off the last reading. Must have done 30 runs at least.
Final flow is 1680cc/min. According to the fuel/HP calcs I am well short.
But the other issue may be part of the problem . Noticed the WUR pressure shoots up to 4 bar+ at certain times when depressing airplate. Not sure if this is artificial or real - maybe airplate extended beyond normal range. At times up to 5 bar - you can feel the airplate kicking back. I tried a run with the boost pressure in the WUR also to see what final CP I had under boost load. Did the same thing - near 4 bar, then I oscillate the airplate a bit and it drops to 1 bar, then back to 4. Can't figure how this is working. Maybe something to do with at limit of fuel pumps?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 05:35 PM
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OK pulled rear fuel pump - was going to check pressure differentials. Turns out I have a 044 equivalent. Bosch # 0580254979. Same specs as an 044. 200lph at 5 bar.
Haven't checked front pump yet. If stock, may put the 044 up there.
So still pondering why short of fuel.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 06:54 PM
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Something is wrong with the fuel delivery, but you know that. How is your system pressure? Is it stable at 100psi? With only descriptions to go on it sounds like you have a weak fuel pump. That would explain the erratic and inconsistent readings. Would also explain why your WCP raises when you depress the air meter plate. If your flow is 60% of what it needs to be you will never be able to tune the system.
As for the fuel distributor tuning, it is rather hard for me to write it in terms that are easy to interpret but I will try. The fuel distributor can only operate at 100% capacity. Simplistically if you shut the flow off to 5 of the ports then #6 gets 100%. If you open another port then those 2 ports share 100%. How much they share depends on how far open they are to both total flow and as compared to each other, because opening the 2nd port takes away flow from the 1st port. Open 3 and you have to re-balance all 3, open 4 rebalance all 4, etc etc until all 6 are open and balanced. It's a 6 way see-saw that is extremely tedious when close to 100% capacity. You can only imagine what a flaky fuel pump would do to that effort. When you are close to max volume it becomes more difficult to determine the point where 100% overpowers the adjusters as a whole, meaning all 6. This is where the fuel pressure regulator adjustment comes into play. If you already know this please disregard, I'm not trying to talk down to you. If you didn't know all that I'm sure you suspected it.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-01-2017, 07:00 PM
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OK, thanks Brian. Any info is useful. Agree there is something wrong in the fuel delivery. Hopefully can nail it. What I found with the FD was successive runs without any adjustment were not repeatable . Certain ports would fluctuate by 10-20%. Agree fuel pump issue would do this. The system pressure is stable 102 psi +/-1.
Can you clarify your fuel flows you use. Checking pumps - at the inlet to FD - 1150cc/30 sec min?
At the injectors 1400cc min - over 30 or 60 sec? Hard to see how 1150 cc/30 sec can give 1400cc over 30 sec. has to be 1 min?.
Just checked pump differential pressure - ie the pressure between F &R pump. 2 bar. I think factory spec is 1.5-2.0 (about to check). If the front pump was subspec it would be a low(er) reading as the rear pump would be sucking the fuel faster than the front wants to supply. So I suspect front pump has been upgraded too - as I am at top end of pressure spec, I think.
Waiting on a new fuel filter (could always be a blocked filter?) - but still trying to confirm these flow numbers. Am going to bypass filter and check flow to FD.
Based on the HP calcs I have nowhere near enough fuel. But depending on whether your 1400 injector flow is 30 sec or 1 min, I may have enough (1680/min).
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 07:37 PM
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OK, pump differential is min of 2 bar, max 4 bar. I am at the lower end. So I think I will install the new 044 on the front when it arrives.
Anyone know why the type 68 engine asks for 1500cc/30 sec for pump flow (compared to 1170). Same engine and HP as others. Did it have upgraded pumps?
Mine is type 68 and currently I have 1400 cc/30 sec pump flow. But other engines function on 1170+?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-01-2017, 07:51 PM
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they also raised the system pressure with the aluminum heads.
if my calculations for fuel flow were correct they needed 1100cc/30 fuel flow, perhaps they thought the pump was limited.

brian confirmed what I was thinking. I saw the same thing when I was messing with mine. basically one adjustment can effect the others. i think you have the adjustments really whacked out, now how to get them back.

when i would do my WOT test i would see the CP jump when i pressured down on the AFM but it always came back to spec as far as i remember. my car actually had a kind of "baffle" in line with the line to the WUR, kind of like a fuel accumulator. basically a diaphragm with a spring in it.

what injectors do you have?
skinny or fat fuel lines to the injectors?

your gauge is connected after the FD, the only thing that can make the reading go up is a restriction AFTER the gauge unless maybe a spike in system pressure would do it and that would be the pressure reg.(i have not done any testing on system pressure and its effect on CP)
i assume if sys pressure goes up CP "should" stay the same, for small changes.
i have 2 sets of gauges. i had the other one connected to the port for the CSV to monitor system pressure. that connection is right at the end of the pressure reg. (i have the cast iron head).
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:13 AM
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Lambda system requires higher pressure and flow than the Euro system to operate optimally. There are many things different about the two.
(My) target spec for the -007 feeding a 400whp engine is 1400cc/30sec. This is with the FD turned up 10% at 100psi. If you are not achieving that number then the flow to the FD is compromised or the FD itself is compromised. If you test the pumps at the FD inlet you should get a number significantly higher as there is always a return flow to the fuel tank. The Euro FD can also support 400WHP when turned up, but that is it's limit.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:44 AM
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Thanks guys. I don't have any lambda. Gone via PO I figure.
Brian, something is not right here with fuel flow specs, and I just want to confirm so I can verify or eliminate as the issue. You say you need 1400cc (injector flow)/30 sec for the 007 head. But that will require well beyond the 1150/30sec FD/pump flow. So, either the pump flow spec is wrong or the injector flow is wrong? I have 1400cc/30sec pump flow (2800/min) and can get 820cc/30 sec injector flow. Near half the injector flow you are quoting. Are you sure these numbers are correct.?
I tested the pump flow without the fuel filter and found another 600cc/min. Probably not unexpected - the fuel filter would have to be quite tight to be useful for the fuel head. But I am waiting on a new filter.
T77911s/brian, I can probably get the 007 head back to near where it was. I did try starting from scratch again. Screwed all adjusters fully in til seated (max flow), then backed them all out 2 1/2 turns and recalibrated - reducing fuel for any further adjustments. If Brians number of 1400/30sec is actually 1400/min, then I can dial it back further and should still have enough.
What size HP do you need to switch to larger fuel lines? I have stock injectors.
I am considering hooking the CIS gauge in to the car when I get it up and running again - to see what is happening to CP on boost. I suspect it is behaving OK in real world - the AFR curve was very predictable.
Hopefully the 044 pump arrives today. Will fit to front. Any surplus will just go to tank. I guess idle flow is the issue.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-02-2017, 10:55 AM
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T77911s, I am not sure those fuel calc links give quite the right numbers. They seem too high. According to the first link (which I think you used) I need at the injectors 2000cc/min to support flywheel 300hp . The spec pump flow for stock 930 is 2300cc/min.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-02-2017, 11:32 AM
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no you did it wrong I think.

ANY given engine with ANY fuel management requires a certain amount of fuel at WOT.

I started with the EFI injector flow requirement as a starting point, then realized fuel pressure (for EFI) has a real effect on injector SIZE.
so I looked at the BSFC site. this is a calculation of how much fuel is needed for a given lambda and HP. (from what I gather).
using the .65 from the EFI site (for turbo engines) I came up with around 500cc for 450hp, the same I came up with on the EFI site.

also from the EFI site I came up with flow that SHOULD be about what Porsche was looking for with a stock 930. (using 100% duty cycle)

brains numbers look to be right for 1400cc/30 sec.
I still think even at 450hp that may be under rating your engine.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-02-2017, 11:49 AM
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so you have the USA injectors and skinny lines?

I might try a test with no injectors, just fuel coming out of the lines.


as far as injectors, I have heard the euro(009) injectors flow more and I have heard there is no difference in injectors. (or read).
I saw a post from brian where he said they flow more than the USA injectors.
I should have saved those threads to link them to you.

I would check FP flow out of the FD. if that aint close to what you need there then you are wasting time. I would look for at least 1500cc out of the FD.
book specs fuel flow OUT of FD
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-02-2017, 11:59 AM
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OK, if Brians 1400cc (injector flow)/30 sec is correct, (2800cc/min) what pump flow are we looking at? I am only 60% of Brians flow. The 044 is rated at 200lph at 5 bar. has to be less at 7 bar, but that is 3300cc/min - at 5 bar. So at 7 bar, if Brians injector flow is right, the 044 would barely keep up. Need bigger pumps, if that figure is right.
My 044 has arrived. Will fit in tandem today with the rear 044 equivalent that is on now. The front pump at the moment looks stock. I will check flow OUT of FD.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-02-2017, 12:27 PM
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OK, may be making some progress - flow OUT of FD is 1350cc/30 sec. Sys press steady 100.
When I open the injectors sys press drops to 80psi.
Looking like not enough pump supply.
I have fitted the rear 044 equiv to the front. About to fit the new 044 to the rear. Need to make up an adaptor fitting, and the family stuff calls for w/end. May be a day or two, but will post results.
New fuel filter should be here early next week too.
Thanks for the help guys.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-02-2017, 04:15 PM
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i don't know if you want to hear this or not.
I searched and found my posts where I did my FP flow tests.
here is what I had:

FP=almost 4000cc per minute or just under 2000cc per 30 sec

this was out of the pump TO the fd.
I later did the test OUT of the FD and I got 1500/30sec.

as far as I know these are stock and original 86 FPs

you might check fuel lines for restriction and pickup in the tank if the filter does not help.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-03-2017, 04:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #56 (permalink)
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There's a flow problem somewhere, no doubt about that. Yes the OEM pumps will support the power if they are healthy. Most often we see 30 year old weak pumps so swap them out for higher capacity units to eliminate that as an issue.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-03-2017, 04:47 AM
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T77911s, thanks for that. Looks like we might be on the right track then. What has thrown me is the flow figures out of pump before FD. The book says 1150, or 1500/30 sec, depending which motor. I am reasonably sure I am reading the book right. But moving 30% away from stock HP means a lot more fuel and there obviously is not much margin in the stock system.
This does make sense as far as the symptoms go. Everything behaves OK until 5500 rpm. Then I hit the wall for fuel. I tried triggering the CSV at 5500 and it didn't seem to make any difference, but at low rpm I could see an AFR drop.
Thanks guys. Those figures look like what I need to be shooting for. Let you know what I get next week when rear pump and new filter fitted.
What HP should I be looking at changing to bigger fuel lines?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-03-2017, 11:40 AM
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I don't know for sure if the skinny lines will restitution flow but at your hp
I may nut hurt to go bigger

CIS had head room for more HP.

1150 and 6.2bar for euro head. 1500 and 6.7bar for aluminum.
That is based on the original engine for your car.

I remember your post about the CSV.

I bet u gain 100hp when this is fixed
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-04-2017, 12:32 PM
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U still have the b2200

I dropped my cp to 3.2 and dropped the idle mixture to 10.3 and it is really running great. Cruise mixture is low 14s.
Set idle mixture with colortune. Just on the edge of wanting to surge
Going to stop worrying about why idle afr is so rich
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-04-2017, 12:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #60 (permalink)
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