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b2200?
OK, new pump installed. Bit of a mission swapping things around, making fittings, and getting it to seal up. But I have swapped my rear pump (044 equiv of unknown history) to the front and installed a new 044 on the rear and a new fuel filter. My pump differential pressure has gone up from 2 bar to 3bar -a good sign. The new rear pump will be better than whatever I had before, and it is still receiving a higher flow of fuel than previous.
My previous pump flow before the FD was 1700/30sec. New flow is 2000/30sec.
Old flow out of FD was 1350/30 sec, new flow 1500/30 sec.
Injector flow is 940/30sec, 820/30 sec was old flow.
So I have picked up a bit of extra fuel, but not huge and still no where near Brian's 1400/30 sec injector flow.
The fuel head is much more stable tho and easier to tune - half a dozen shots and within 3% variance. Not sure I will get it much better. I guess all I can do is try it out.
Any ideas at what flow/HP you need bigger injectors/lines?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-06-2017, 06:51 PM
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awesome. you have eliminated one variable.
that's the numbers I had.

do the flow test with NO injectors.
how old are the injectors?

I think you really need to talk to chris at turbokraft. tell him what you have, FD, injectors, fuel lines, pumps and flow out of the pumps. he has LOT of experience getting the most out of CIS, probably no one better at it.


I thought you had a mazda B2200?
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-07-2017, 03:55 AM
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Yes, I did have a mazda B2200. Sold. The injectors are 2-3 yrs old. Not a lot of fuel thru them.
I am going to try and check the screen in tank - make sure it is clean. Not quite sure how that job goes.
But I have found another 10% flow to the injectors, which is probably what I am looking for. Be nice to find a bit of margin.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 10:16 AM
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I did these flow tests using a separate battery on another vehicle with that engine running, jumper leads to the 930. My 930 only has a small capacity liteweight race battery. You could hear the engine on the power supply vehicle load up when the pumps were under load. I think , as Brian mentioned earlier, the battery/alternator condition is important to get proper fuel delivery if near the margins.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 10:22 AM
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I put my battery charger on my batt and set it to 10amps.

battery size (physical) should not matter. it obviously has the CCA to start it so its just a matter of amp hours, but with a charger on it that is really not an issue.

your tests are also short, I was doing 10 minute idle flow tests.

I would say you could be losing power to the pumps depending on your setup but you now at least have the flow I do.

tank screen is not a big. man you are just running thru all the tests I did. drain the tank and remove the plug in the bottom. then use a mirror and light. I also removed the sending unit so I could look down in there.

I am really curious of the flow test without injectors

still have my mazda. bad motor but I still drive it short distances. keep saying I will rebuild it but too many other projects going on
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-07-2017, 11:42 AM
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Those B2200 motors are good.
I have a query (Brian?) about my WUR, now that I am trying to get things back to near normal settings. My WUR pressure drop is from 3.4 to 1.6 bar with 0.5 bar boost pressure. I am puzzled by this and want to rectify it. In the early days when the boost dump was excessive for the engine I had some harder WUR springs made up (twice the spring rate). Even fitting those the dump is still near the same.
I can restrict the dump physically by an adjuster screw but this makes track adjustments difficult.
Any clues as to why the boost dump is so high?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 12:47 PM
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How are you testing the fuel delivery at the injectors?

How are you adjusting your boost settings on the WUR?
I use an air compressor with fine adjustment range from 0 - 1.0bar as shown in the picture below I took while tuning a client's 930. Engine is off, battery charger hooked up, pumps on, WUR at full warm control pressure. Start off at 0.0bar and slowly pressurize the WUR vac port until the control pressure begins to drop. Note that boost pressure. Progress until control pressure goes no lower. Note that boost pressure and control pressure. Then do full boost and threshold WUR adjustments to target.


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Old 11-07-2017, 05:41 PM
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The screen is clean. So it is a bit of a mystery why my flow rate is no more than a stock '86. I have the equivalent of 2x 044 pumps now.
Yes it would be good to test flow out of injector lines - but I have it partially back together now. Have to get it off the hoist to make way for a mates SC - brake seal change. Been promising/putting off/promising for a couple of months now.
I guess the best test would be injector line flow, then uncouple the lines and run direct from the ports. If there is much of a difference you could conclude bigger lines were needed .
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 05:45 PM
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That is pretty much what I have been doing Brian - using a mighty vac pump. Pumps running, WUR powered up by separate battery source to get/set WP. Then pressurise WUR with Mightyvac watching the WP drop. It is static until about 0.5 bar boost. Then drops by over 1 bar, more boost pressure (eg 1 bar) does not increase the drop. I am puzzled why the drop is so large. I removed the stock spring in the base of the WUR (the one the boost pressure works against) and replaced it with one 2x stronger. Same result (0.2 bar WP better). If I can get this back to near normal, happy to bolt it all up and try it out. Even settle for 1 bar WP drop.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 05:50 PM
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Sorry - forgot to explain how I tested for injector flow.
External power source, pumps running, WUR WP set (gauge in line in WUR), open airplate to near full and collect fuel for 15 secs. Pumps off. I don't jam the airplate right to th physical stop, but sit about 1/2" above that. Feel the stop and let the plate rise about 10mm. I'm not sure the plate fully opens on WOT from other threads I have read.
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-07-2017, 07:02 PM
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At full throttle the air flow sensor plate does not open far. No where near all the way. Control pressure keeps it near shut most of the time.

To see it's movement and positions while driving you would have to mount a small video camera with a light in the engine bay and record a video of the air flow meter sensor plate while driving at full throttle from different speeds in different gears with no air cleaner in place.

You could also watch it while the car is on a chassis dyno.
Old 11-08-2017, 03:39 PM
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Thats what I thought Jim.
So pushing the plate to 90% deflection should be giving me maximum fuel thru the slits? Or is there a position in between that - can you over shoot?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-08-2017, 04:29 PM
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The whole trick is to somehow lower control pressure so the air flow sensor plate will go down a little farther so it injects more fuel when you floor it.

Andial came up with an analog device with a cockpit mounted adjustment knob to do this yearzzz ago. I've never had the chance to try one though.

I remember some self appointed forum experts (that sold CIS modified fuel heads) bad mouthing it.
Could be they just had their own selfish agenda and didn't have the brainpower to invent it.
Old 11-08-2017, 06:20 PM
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Then there was the air cone on the metering plate. I think that was supposed to do a similar job?
Lowering the boost CP would have the same effect tho?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-08-2017, 07:54 PM
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I just checked my boost CP. it is dropping about .9bar from WCP. WCP is 3.2 and boost is 2.3.
I would like another .2bar drop.

alan, what WUR do you have and has it been modified to be adjustable, I see you keep talking about changing the spring to adjust the drop.

I am curious about the spring you put in,
is it physically the same size? same height?
here is why I ask.
when the diaphragm drops down under boost, what is the limiting stop as far as how far it can drop down. if it is the compressed height of the spring and you put in a shorter spring then the boost CP could go lower. to a point, changing the spring compression wont change how much the CP drops because the boost pressure will eventually overcome the spring. what it will change is threshold setting or at what boost pressure the CP drops.
I think you said your boost CP is 1.6, that's pretty low.

I always checked my WOT fuel flow with the AFM all the way down. just trying to check the balance and more interested in repeatable readings.
I have also thought the overall travel of the sensor plate was not very much, especially based on the 911 plate travel
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-09-2017, 04:21 AM
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I think mine is type 145 (if that makes sense) . Bit hard to get at now.
The springs ; in the early days when I was struggling with a bunch of problems, including the ubiquitous excessive fuel dump, I had a series of springs made for the WUR. These were to replace the base boost dump spring. They were made in a series of harder pressures to compress the spring. The working length of the spring is about 11mm. In other words the approx 2" long spring compresses to around 1/2" in the WUR. It takes a certain amount of force to compress to this point (about 3kg stock spring). I had a bunch made progressing to 5+kg. A slightly heavier wire grade will do it. There are a bunch of calcs you can do depending on the wire - the length of wire is one factor. Anyway - I think you are right. It did not seem to control the boost dump very well. I then deviated off to the Digi WUR /UT path for a few years until they got junked. Then I got to physically restricting the travel of the boost diaphragm - fitted a screw in the base of the WUR and that is where I am back to now. I can apply the 0.8bar boost pressure on the WUR and with CIS gauge set up can adjust the screw to allow a max CP drop.
My current settings (as of y/day) are WP 3.4 bar, boost CP 2.7bar. The factory specs are 3.6/2.9. I have installed the stock spring again. Not sure why I was getting such a massive boost drop. All I can do is try it out and adjust from there. Trying to work out if I can sneak out on the hway rather than waste a day getting to the track for 10 mins of data. With the race livery and zork it is somewhat conspicuous.
As for the max flow, Brian raises an interesting Q when asking how determined. Would be interesting to see what he does. But AFAIK the airplate does not fully open at WOT. So I am not sure fully depressing the airplate gets you the actual max flow . I have sketched out what I think happens in this respect. So the trick is to know if the slits are fully uncovered by the metering edge of the piston. I recall some early threads on this topic where pioneers were trying to uncover more of the slit. Which is what I think the airplate cone was about. And the drop in CP at boost is trying to do the same.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)

Last edited by Alan L; 11-09-2017 at 10:42 AM..
Old 11-09-2017, 10:01 AM
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Euro fuel lines with -009 injectors are not a restriction to HP or flow at 400whp. Fuel pump delivery is measured at the fuel distributor inlet, fuel distributor delivery to the injectors is measured at the injector inlet. Injector function is measured at the injector outlet. That is how I do it. If I'm getting 1400cc/30sec fuel distributor delivery all should be good. If not I pull the injectors and check function.
You might recall a few years back I played around with increasing the area of the cylinder fuel slits. The area was increased horizontally, not vertically, to accommodate the working range of the piston/metering plate assembly.


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Old 11-09-2017, 08:01 PM
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Brian - something to ponder. If you are sucking another 100-200HP past the airplate, what position do you think the airplate is in relative to the metering slits/fuel piston? It must be more depressed than stock - right? In which case the piston must be more elevated in regard to the slits. So where does that leave the fuel metering? If the piston is opening all the slit height in stock WOT, that would suggest it is travelling beyond max slit area with extra air being sucked in?
So you are measuring your 1400/30 sec at the end of the injector lines?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-10-2017, 08:49 PM
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i think you may be getting side tracked on how far the plate actually opens.

I would check injector flow then fuel line flow with it all the way down. if your flow is too low at this point it is not going to be any better with less plate travel. plus, you need to have repeatable measurements.

brian, I think he has the skinny lines and no 009 injectors.

the book says to measure fuel pump flow OUT if the FD. I think I gave you some good numbers to use for both ways. (euro FD). I think the reason for this is the FD gives the pumps some resistance and if the pumps have an issue this will help it to show. the other reason is it checks the restrictions of the FD.

I seriously doubt the plunger will go past the slits and start to close them up.

you really need to talk to chris at turbokraft.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-13-2017, 04:27 AM
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Yes, it sounds like Brian is measuring the 1400/30 sec at the end of injector lines - something I have not done.
I have found extra fuel, possibly not as much as I was expecting. But worth trying out anyway. Not looking for a whole lot more.
As for the metering piston - I am just pondering the what ifs. If Porsche did not leave a whole lot of HP/fuel on the table that would mean the metering slits were near maxed out at WOT. For a stock 300 HP. So, what happens when you try and get more air thru the airplate? Given the airplate is not right at the bottom at WOT, there must be an optimal position to measure max fuel at the end of the fuel lines and injectors. And beyond that, or short of that, the only option is to deliver less fuel?
I would think Brians effort at widening the slits all the way up would have lead to rich fuel numbers at other than WOT. You don't need extra fuel low down. They need to be a Y shape, I am thinking.
Just pondering the possibilities. Hope to try mine out today - on the road. If I don't get locked up, I will report back.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-13-2017, 09:54 AM
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