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did you see craigs 930. he has 418 at the wheels and 12.5 with CIS
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-13-2017, 11:19 AM
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At 1.0 bar, I would probably be close to that. I just need to run it and see where I am at fuelwise.
I guess there is more I can do if needed - larger fuel lines (check flows first and see if limiting) and 009 injectors. I guess I am close to the limits of what I have.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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Just done a road test. Definitely got more fuel . Exactly how it will work out, can only tell at the track. Impossible to drive it like track conditions on the road. But looks like progress. Hopefully enough.
Just checked Craig's 930 specs. IA fuel head, and large fuel lines. 438rwhp. Slightly different beast. Which makes me think I must be close to the fuel limits for what I have.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)

Last edited by Alan L; 11-13-2017 at 04:16 PM..
Old 11-13-2017, 04:12 PM
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how long or how much have you been tracking this car and running lean up top?

if you are that lean it wont run long on a track unless you are short shifting
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-14-2017, 04:05 AM
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Been like that for some time. Short shifting. Set the shift light at the point the AFRs start to climb above 12.5. It was OK at WOT until I changed the cams and turbo and opened the intake ports. I think it suddenly was able to breath a whole lot better at the top end instead of flattening out. So suddenly I needed more fuel. But it has taken a while to work out where the problem was. The first thing was the fuel head went away to mod to 007. Then tried fidddling with WUR pressures etc.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-14-2017, 10:29 AM
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There is an incredibly simple way to get wayyyy more fuel up top for testing purposes.
Drive the car for at least 20 minutes to get the motor completely up to operating temperature.
Pull over and unplug the 12 volt supply plug from the control pressure regulator/WUR.
Go back to driving and watch your wide band AFR gauge slowy go richer and richer.

After about 15 to 20 minutes the bimetallic thermostat spring in the WUR will have cooled down and stabilized. You'll see that your AFR's have gone richer around 2 points or whatever you want to call it.
That depends on what WUR you have and how it's mounted but it will go richer.

If you have the CIS Flowtech 007 fuel head and the AFR was around 13:1 or 14:1 at 6500 rpm's and 1 to 1.2bar boost before with the 12 volt plug on the WUR then after removing the plug and around 15-20 minutes the bimetallic spring will have cooled down and AFR will be around 10:1 to 11:1 at the same rpm's and boost with the plug removed.

Some people think engine ambient heat is enough to raise control pressure and lean out the motor... Nope, I've tested all this and engine ambient heat is no where near enough to have any useful effect on the WUR bimetallic spring.

The bracket the WUR is mounted on also partially isolates engine heat from transferring into the WUR cast aluminum housing.
The 12 volt resistance wire wound around the bimetallic spring is heating it to the level that it compresses the springs in the WUR enough to push the fuel metering disc up against a fuel flow orifice in the top of the WUR lowering the amount of fuel returning to the gas tank thus raising control pressure which pushes the control plunger in the fuel head down closing off more of the metering slits in the control plunger cylinder which lowers the amount of fuel sent to the injectors which leans out the AFR.

I used to have two cast aluminum rubber diaphragm 007 fuel heads. I put one on the '87 930 I used to have and sold the other one to Brian Bodart.

Imagine Auto or IA never modified Cast Aluminum Lambda CIS fuel heads, they sent them to Larry Fletcher at CIS Flowtech and Larry did all the modifications and adjustments and then stamped 007 into the upper or lower half of the aluminum lambda fuel head.

The CIS Flowtech 007 fuel head I used to have was not built with an ethanol tolerant rubber diaphragm or ethanol tolerant rubber o-rings. They gradually swelled up and rotted from the 10% of ethanol mixed into todays E10 pump gasoline.
The rubber o-ring around the #4 injector line metering slit o-ring holder rotted and started leaking so the #4 injector was spraying too much fuel and ran too rich below 2000 rpms and misfired. It would idle on 5 cylinders and would run on all 6 above 2000 rpms.

I called Larry and he wanted $475 to rebuild the fuel head again.
No way I was going to do that so after some internet searches I found Welcome to salvox! - salvox

Salvox makes ethanol tolerant rebuild kits for CIS fuel heads and the one for an '87 turbo with the aluminum lambda fuel head is $69.95

http://salvox.com/products.php32&cPath=10&sid=2b300dfd0b7d88683d9ae9d7dc6d63b7

Salvox also sells their rebuild kits on ebay with no sales tax and free shipping.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bosch-Fuel-Distributor-Rebuild-Kit-for-PORSCHE-911-3-3-Turbo-0438100145/301844846729?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41376%26meid%3Df2d81007e2ae45a 2804f22df12797455%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D 6%26sd%3D272751608441&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

Salvox is in Fort Lauderdale, Florida so they are about an hour drive south of me.
I bought the kit off ebay since that was easier and lowest cost.
After rebuilding the fuel head the motor ran perfect all the time.

I hope all this is of some help.
Old 11-14-2017, 01:10 PM
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Good info Jim, as always. Thanks. Never thought of disconnecting the WUR element to check effect.
Simple test to see if lowering WP will help.
And the Salvox link is useful too.
Thanks
Just need to get to track now and see if I can tweek it close to perfect. Will never be perfect (CIS), but as close as can be would be good. CIS is full of trade-offs.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-14-2017, 01:17 PM
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I was going to try another thing from stuff I had sitting around.
I used to build speaker cabinets so I have some inexpensive wire wound 8 ohm L pad potentiometers for adjusting tweeter levels in high power speaker cabinets sitting around.
Here's an example of one.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002KR0T2/ref=asc_df_B0002KR0T25265347/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395009&creativeASIN=B0002KR0T2&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167141218295&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17010598554935106309&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012002&hvtargid=pla-310031435468
I never got around to trying this though.

I was going to run the ground wire from the WUR power cable and not the AAR back into the car.
Then wire it to the 8 ohm wire wound L pad potentiometer in a way that adds resistance and then to ground.

Leaving the wire wound potentiometer turned up one way so it doesn't add resistance then nothing would be changed.
Turn it the other way and and resistance is gradually added to the ground wire for the heater element in the WUR so it doesn't heat up as hot. This way you could slowly adjust AFR from inside the car while it's running.
The AFR changes would be slow and could take minutes but it would work and experimenting with it could be fun if you're into it.
Old 11-14-2017, 02:23 PM
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Another cunning plan. May beat having to tweek the WUR spring - basically doing the same job, but electronically.
Well done Jim. It is filed in my list of possibles.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-14-2017, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
.

Some people think engine ambient heat is enough to raise control pressure and lean out the motor... Nope, I've tested all this and engine ambient heat is no where near enough to have any useful effect on the WUR bimetallic spring.

.
the top of the 930 engine is actually very cool.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-15-2017, 03:49 AM
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I am not sure if what jim said would work as far as removing the power from the WUR but you can test it before you drive it. the reason I question it is because the boost pressure is limited by how far the diaphragm can move.

with the WUR power removed, apply 1bar pressure to the WUR and check the CP.
then put power back and let it come up to temp and repeat.

I could be wrong but I would test it first because if I am right and you don't get a change in AFR's it may just add to the confusion of whats going on.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-15-2017, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Good info Jim, as always. Thanks. Never thought of disconnecting the WUR element to check effect.
Simple test to see if lowering WP will help.
And the Salvox link is useful too.
Thanks
Just need to get to track now and see if I can tweek it close to perfect. Will never be perfect (CIS), but as close as can be would be good. CIS is full of trade-offs.
Regards
Alan
my opinion, the shape of the AFM is the real problem when it comes to modifying the 930
I look at the AFM like the program for EFI. more so on the 911.
the AFM was shaped or programed for the stock 930, when it starts to need more fuel on a modified engine then the AFM shape is the real issue.
the shape could be too wide so as more air is pulled in the plate is not moving down at the proper rate. as jim said, the plate already does not go all the way down, perhaps due to the short AFM cone.

if you have ever looked at a 911 AFM it is narrow at the bottom, then gets wider for the mid RPM lean cruise then gets narrow again for WOT. its actually the angle that changes.
I was very surprised to see the 930 one is pretty linear and actually quite short.

too bad someone does not just make a new top half of the AFM that is shaped better


jim, did you build HIFI speakers or pro audio?
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-15-2017, 04:20 AM
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You can purchase modified air meter assemblies, but at a really hefty price.
Yes the WUR is electrically controlled and does not depend on ambient temperature for warm control pressure function, if it did you would have huge variations of function depending on where you live. Unplug and the pressure starts to drop, but it cannot drop lower than when the engine is stone cold and it cannot make the system pump more fuel if there is no more fuel available to add.
You have enough fuel available with your system, no doubt about that. I suspect the FD needs to be rebuilt and recalibrated as something is restricting flow.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:40 AM
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I'm guessing since your 007 fuel head is modified then it no longer has the frequency valve installed?

If the frequency valve is still installed then another test that can be done for more fuel up top is to run 12 volts to the valve through some sort of switching mechanism aka your RPM switch. This is especially true of your frequency valve is installed but not in use. Turn the 12 volts on in the upper RPMs when the AFR starts going lean.

I can explain this further if needed however there is mention of this in the FrankenCIS thread.
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:17 AM
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no FV

I was thinking the price would be a lot and at that point EFI would be worth it.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-15-2017, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaefer View Post
I'm guessing since your 007 fuel head is modified then it no longer has the frequency valve installed?
That's correct.

When you send a lambda fuel head to CIS Flowtech to be modified into a 007 fuel head you don't include the frequency valve and the two small banjo bolts that hold it on.
Larry will put a small 10x1mm stainless steel plug with an aluminum sealing washer in the lower chamber fuel feed hole on the left side where a banjo bolt was and then put a shorter length banjo bolt in the fuel return side hole in the right side where two banjo bolts with aluminum sealing washers were stacked on a longer 10x1mm banjo bolt.

The short fuel feed banjo bolt from the left side can be used to replace the longer banjo bolt on the right side when removing the frequency valve.

I hope I'm remembering all this correctly
Old 11-15-2017, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
That's correct.

When you send a lambda fuel head to CIS Flowtech to be modified into a 007 fuel head you don't include the frequency valve and the two small banjo bolts that hold it on.
Larry will put a small 10x1mm stainless steel plug with an aluminum sealing washer in the lower chamber fuel feed hole on the left side where a banjo bolt was and then put a shorter length banjo bolt in the fuel return side hole in the right side where two banjo bolts with aluminum sealing washers were stacked on a longer 10x1mm banjo bolt.

The short fuel feed banjo bolt from the left side can be used to replace the longer banjo bolt on the right side when removing the frequency valve.

I hope I'm remembering all this correctly
I have been wondering if the 007 modded fuel head would work WITH a lambda valve controlled by FrankenCIS and avoid mucking around with WUR adjustments.

I'm not sure what's involved in the 007 mod. Anybody?
Old 11-15-2017, 09:48 AM
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I'm not sure what's involved in the 007 mod. Anybody?

This is where the plot thickens. Nobody seems to exactly know - but Jim thinks the bore is widened?
As per comments on WUR heater - as Brian says, as long as the pumps can supply, disconnecting or reducing the heating wire temp must allow more fuel - on Boost as well. You are basically running Cold pressures (or inbetween) which means pressure drops across the board.
I never cease to marvel at how the Bosch engineers got this stuff to actually function quite well.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-15-2017, 09:55 AM
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Think of the -007 as a big bore -037 (Euro). The design is similar but with more capacity and in an aluminum body.
There are adjustments that can be made to race car systems that are not suggested for street use. One is to lower the control pressure and increase the system pressure. Another is to fatten up the mixture. Pure race cars of the CIS era did not use a WUR at all which gives you a hint at what can be done if you don't care about fuel mileage or cold starts.
You don't have these problems so I don't suggest doing any of that. The -007 combined with adjustable WUR and at least one -044 pump will support a solid 425WHP. I believe you have an occlusion of some sort or a component failure that is holding back flow to the injectors.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:16 PM
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Brian, Is there a screen on the inlet side to the FD? That would be the logical place to look for a flow restriction. Hesitant to start ripping into what may otherwise prove to be a good FD.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 11-17-2017, 01:47 PM
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