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fuel head flow rate query

Hi guys.
I am trying to find some factual flow rates for either the Aluminum head or more usefully the modified 007 head. I have the 007 head and in theory it should easily support the HP I have. But I am running out of fuel around 5500rpm (12.5+ AFR and climbing).
My pump flow rate is 1400cc/30 sec. My FD/WUR flow rate is 200cc/min (mid range spec). System pressure 100 psi.
What I would like to get is an objective number measured ex-FD that I can compare my head with. Maybe there is more left in the head. Dunno. And won't know until I can compare to some numbers. Hopefully something like injector flow at WOT.
Thanks
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-23-2017, 03:44 PM
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did you measure the pump flow rate coming OUT of the FD?

what is the control pressure when under boost? you can regulate air down to about 10psi and put it into the WUR to check. no need to run the engine either.

how are the injectors? what injectors do you have

was it you that several years ago you were messing with the flow adjuster screws trying to balance them out?
did you ever send the head off to be rebuilt after messing with them?
if you messed with the flow adjustment you could have turned it down or it may just need to be turned up.
what mods where done to the 007 FD?

I believe the stock head is setup to flow 20% below its max. they are usually just turned up to support the mods to the engine.
I don't know the flow rate but I do know it WILL support more HP than you have. not sure if the 009 injectors make a difference and at what HP.
chris from turbokraft would know. you may just PM him.

just my opinion but what I think can happen is when you reduce the back pressure on the engine with a header and a turbo(not yours/mine) it runs out of fuel up top.
I am really curious to see back pressure numbers from stock to the B&B and the rarlyl8 headers.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:59 AM
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I measured the pump flow going into the head - the screw on hose that hooks in to the FD.
The head was sent away to be modded to 007 specs (I'm guessing to Larry?). When it came back I checked all the flows were balanced. They were spot on. I can't remember if I tweeked it then or after. But I was still short of fuel. So I opened the flow up by 10% on one port (compared to the other 5) . Then I tweeked the other 5 to match. I got to a point where one port would give no more and had to dial the others back to match. That is where the head sits now. I am still short of fuel at the top end. So trying to find where the issue is. The dump CP is per spec - ie about 0.5 bar CP for 0.5 bar boost. It is working properly. I have dropped the WP in the WUR to the point where the cold pressure is stupid rich, but it doesn't seem to help.
The injectors were replaced a yr or two ago. Only track miles since so they haven't done huge mileage.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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This.
*did you measure the pump flow rate coming OUT of the FD?*
As also T77911S points out, it is important to measure after the FD where the pump operates under pressure. it can give a completely different result.
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Old 10-24-2017, 02:42 PM
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OK, can do. But what specs do I reference that against - the factory test and specs are as I measured it. Unless I got that wrong.
Which fitting do I use to measure flow after FD?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-24-2017, 03:32 PM
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Check that the return line flows well. Somehow it can become partially clogged in the tank. Then CIS becomes impossible.
Old 10-24-2017, 10:45 PM
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Can do Jim. I guess I can blow air thru the line.
Anyone got suggestions how to measure pump flow after the FD?
Thanks
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-25-2017, 09:16 AM
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Seems you could unscrew the return line where it connects to the gas tank, put a container under it to collect the gas, and turn on the fuel pumps. Then somewhere on the internet there may be a specification on how much gas should come out of the return line in a certain amount of time.
If that information can't be found with internet searches or asking here on the forum then you could try emailing TurboKraft and ask them.

I remember David Cole, bless his heart, had problems with his CIS that he couldn't figure out. He sent his fuel head and control pressure regulator out to be rebuilt maybe more than once but the problem never changed.
The problem ended up being a bunch of old dried gas residue in the narrow metal return line tubing inside the gas tank was clogged or partially clogged.
I don't remember how he cleared out the line inside the gas tank but once he did the problem was fixed.

Maybe you could try pushing some stiff wire like piano string wire into the return line fitting on the gas tank. Rotateing the wire while pushing it in might help if the internal tubing has any curves or bends in it.
Good luck with it.
Old 10-25-2017, 10:36 AM
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Maybe I'm thinking of this the wrong way, but if his problem is not enough fuel (lean up top), how would a restricted return line cause that? If the pumps and FD are working correctly, but the bottleneck is at the return, wouldn't the fuel have nowhere to go and the system would go pig rich?

Or would the system pressure be thrown off from a return line restriction, causing the 100psi system pressure to be misleading?

Jim, do you remember what Coles issue was or what the symptoms were when he had the clogged return line?

Alan, I know you said the boost enrichment CP was in spec, but have you tried lowering it? Wouldn't "in spec" be for a stock motor? Yours needs a lot more fuel than a stocker does. On my Leask WUR I had to adjust the boost enrichment to get the AFR's in line when on full boost. Maybe you just have to keep tweaking it? I don't see a modified WUR in your car specs in your signature. What WUR are you using?
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:03 PM
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Seems to me that if the return line is clogged or restricted then fuel will have no where to go so hydraulic control pressure pushing the fuel metering piston down will go just as high as maximum fuel pump delivery system pressure. I may be wrong though.

If that happens the air flow sensor plate may stay near idle speed position when you push the go pedal to the floor.

Then when you're totally sick of CIS... you may just rip the obsolete crap off and install electronic fuel injection.
Old 10-25-2017, 01:46 PM
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Remove the return hose that goes from FD to the tank.
measure the amount of gasoline there comes out of the FD in 30 seconds.
In this way the pumps work at a pressure of 6-6,7 bar
The amount must be at least 1170 ccm in 30 seconds.
As I understand it you have measured the free flowing to the FD and not under pressure.
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Old 10-25-2017, 02:47 PM
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OK, guys, I will measure the fuel as Daugaard suggests - collect after FD. Altho I am sure the manual specs are to collect before FD. And I will try and verify return flow to tank.
Don't get me wrong, everything is behaving as normal, except I run out of fuel at the top end. Standard WUR with Leask switch. I am not sure I can tweek it to drop the CP more. That is the response of the diaphragm spring to boost pressure. Possibly if I used a softer spring in the WUR. I have a range of springs - could try getting a bigger CP drop. Good thought.
I am still thinking no one has any actual FD flow figures for an aluminium or 007 head - ie at the injector at WOT?
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-25-2017, 05:18 PM
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Yeah, I meant lowering the Boost enrichment CP, not raising it. D'oh! With cams, turbo, headers, zork and IC, I don't see how a stock WUR can keep up under full boost. I had to delay the boost enrichment onset and lower the boost enrichment CP to not go pig rich in mid rpms when it dumped and then lean up top. Leask made it relatively easy.
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:37 PM
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Jeff, How did you lower the boost enrich CP? The only way I can see is to change the spring in the WUR.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-25-2017, 09:37 PM
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Well, I did it the easy way be getting a Leask WUR.

If you want to try adjusting yours via spring changes and you take yours apart, there are three sections of the WUR and the big spring in between the bottom and middle section handles the boost threshold. There are two springs in between the middle and top sections (one inside the other) and those adjust the boost CP. the smaller spring is on the top of the diaphragm and the threshold spring presses against the bottom of the diaphragm, so I would think that changing one would affect each other.

So if you were to reduce the spring pressure on the smaller springs (I think the Leask only changes the smallest inner spring pressure but I'm not positive), the CP should be lower. The difficulty you may have is that with the Leask WUR, very small adjustments with a threaded stud adjusting the height of the plate attached to the diaphragm in the middle section (thereby changing the spring rates) can make big swings in my AFR's, so dialing this in may prove difficult with limited spring rate changes.


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Old 10-25-2017, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Check that the return line flows well. Somehow it can become partially clogged in the tank. Then CIS becomes impossible.
I did this check on mine. I was able to blow thru it and hear the bubbles in the tank.

when I did my pump test thru the FD I think I put the bolt for the return back in and connected a large rubber to it and ran that to a bucket. no restriction in the hose so the fuel should just flow out.

you are NOT running of fuel due to limitations of the FD. not enough HP.

here is what I try to live by when I have issues....go back to factory settings:
set the WCP to spec(it has nothing to do with boost).
apply about 5-10psi to the WUR and check CP for boost.

post results


is your WUR adjustable?
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 10-26-2017, 08:59 AM
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larry and maybe chris and turbokraft would know actual flow rates. for that matter, you should ask about the injectors. I think I have seen a post on injector flow. I was under the impression the 009 inj flows more than the lambda ones.
if you had this info would you know if the flow was enough?
chris has used them on hi HP engines, just ask him.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[] RUNNING:[_] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [_] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 10-26-2017, 09:04 AM
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Alan I figured Larry would have answered your question by now.
Can't speak for anyone else but I only check flow rate at the injectors as that is all i am concerned with. My target for the -007 wide open is 1400cc/30sec. I'd stil check with Larry as you should not be running out of fuel.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:11 AM
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When I took the CIS Flowtech 007 modified fuel head I used to have completely apart to rebuild it with a Salvox rebuild kit which includes the rubber diaphragm and all the o-rings I could see some rough machine work inside the hole the control plunger fits into that did not look like it was done by Bosch.

The Bosch machine work was nearly smooth as glass everywhere.
The hole in the fuel head the control plunger cylinder slides into has a little bit wider area machined around where the six metering slits are in the steel control plunger cylinder.
That area was around 14 mm long and it had surface scratches that looked like maybe Larry machined that area wider so fuel would have a little more room to accumulate and change direction before it was pushed through the 6 metering slits.

When I did a flow test with all 6 injectors on the lines they all flowed real close to equal amounts.

It looked like he adjusted them to flow as much as possible by starting with all six 3mm allen screws screwed in all the way and then left the one that flowed the least amount of fuel screwed in all the way and then slowly backed the other 5 out by gradually turning the 3mm allen head screws counter clockwise to decrease spring tension on the small disc valve that is pressed against a metering orifice under the injector line fitting in the fuel head until they all flowed the same amount of fuel as the one that was screwed in all the way.

Larry won't tell you what he does but he likes talking about going fishing or maybe he was just trying to change the subject while I was asking about the 007 fuel head modifications. It was around 10 years ago that I talked to him.

He asked me to not tell people what he did when modifying them.
If you don't have a CIS fuel head test bench and a machine shop to do what he does to them I don't think I'm hurting his business by telling what I do know.
930 fuel head mods are a small amount of what he does. The majority of his work is rebuilding CIS fuel heads from old Mercedes sedans. There are a still lot of those out there being driven daily.
Old 10-26-2017, 12:06 PM
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Thanks Jim/Brian, guys. What I did to set my head up after the 007 mod is pretty well as Jim described. It is set to flow as much as the lowest flow port will allow. I have measured the boost dump CP before and it is in spec - working correctly - which is why I have the Leask switch on - too much fuel at boost onset.
I'm not sure checking the flow rate against the 100psi helps me much - unless I have a figure to compare with - the 1150ml/30 sec is the factory figure for the open flow check. And won't bear any relationship to 100psi check. But Brians figures help. I agree that the injector flow end is what matters. That is how much is getting in to the engine.
I did email Larry for some flow info, but no reply.
OK, I will work on Brians figures. I suspect I will be low on that spec - I get 1400ml/30 sec without the 100 psi and injector restrictions. If that is the case I will have to look at the pumps. Altho in theory they are doing enough (at 1400ml/30 sec).
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 10-27-2017, 01:54 PM
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