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Location: Glorious Pac NW
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Need help with EFI turbo selection

Hey guys.

After a longer-than-expected downtime, EFI conversion now complete.. Difference is night and day - uh, wow.. Instant throttle response, crisp, raspy angry noises in the back, better fuel consumption, tunability up the wazoo - all great. (well, except the tunability - you can have too much of a good thing, LOL).

Mostly twiddling part-throttle ignition/fuel lately but motor certainly run in now. Other day, tried to get the wastegate open and basically it didn't. Hit 10 PSI on the gauge and stayed there stable until time to shift. Car hit 1 bar just fine on the rollers with boost control when we did the WOT trim, but no danger of going to jail/dying in a fireball there..

And already knew the K27/HF was out-matched with the ports/EFI; had to remove fuel at the top when dyno tuning. Seems like it's worse than I thought; simply doesn't build boost in the lower gears before it's time to shift - has a G50/01, so rips through those gears pretty quick @ 165kPa..

It drives great off-boost and spools up fine - so seems turbo just doesn't move enough air. While not exactly slow - dyno'd 420 ft/lb & HP at the wheels - I do miss the "horizon on a rubber band" sensation that you should get on boost. That's gonna have to get fixed...

So time for a modern turbo I think... Build sheet:
  • 3.4 Nickies/8:1 JEs
  • SC cams
  • heads ported to 3.2 specs
  • 3.2 manifold
  • RarlyL8 42mm headers
  • Kokelyn
  • Pauter rods
  • Twin-plugged w/ Pepperwagon (Beru) COP
  • sequential injection
  • "Lightened" RoW muffler

And various other "ooh, shiny!" bits..

With CIS, Kokelyn & headers, the K27/HF made 6PSI @ 2400 with load, hit full boost (.8 bar) @ 3000-3200, and would be pretty interesting until it slowed down somewhere over 5000, where CIS was running out of fuel anyway. Peaked about 370 on the rollers, which used to seem adequate (you know how that goes).

So; really like quick throttle response/spool. All-in by 3000-3500 sounds about perfect. No objections at all to it pulling hard to redline (nominal 7K, motor should be fine to 8). Not overly bothered by peak HP, just seriously need the shove-in-the-back boost fix back.

Oh, and it's got skinny tires (255/40/17 RT615K+), 'coz tatty-looking SC flared-sleeper... So less drag racer, more surprisingly quick old sports car...

Been a while since I was looking at turbos.

GTX35R with billet (naturally) wheel looks like it'll get the job done. But there's the GSX61, and a crop of Precisions a few years ago that looked interesting.. Would either of those spool quicker still than the GTX? Make substantially more top-end? What are the current offerings/thinking?

Ideally, I'd like as close to bolt-up replacement for the K27 as possible - but at the end of the day, that's not as important as being happy with the final result.

You guys have already been such a bad influence - help me spend my money
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-09-2018, 06:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,656
Iíd avoid Precision like the plaque. Just saw one blow up the other day and the car was near 200MPH when the comp wheel went through the turbo and front tire. The Housingís are supposed to contain the wheels!!!

Anyways, I like my Borg S366, but you can get an S362 that is capable of nearly the same peak hp but runs a smaller turbine. Should on paper spool sooner, but Iím here to say mine spoils just fine.

GT35Rís spool quick, even on a stock port 3.3. Friend of mine had one on his 965. Beings youíre running 3.2 specs, lighting it up should be even easier.

But both above boost pretty linear. If you want sledgehammer boost, you may want to go with an old school T66 or T67.

Thereís many modern turbos fitting the bill, just throwing out all the ones I personally ran or been around.

Iím sure many others will chime in.
Old 06-09-2018, 06:59 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
Hey guys.

After a longer-than-expected downtime, EFI conversion now complete.. Difference is night and day - uh, wow.. Instant throttle response, crisp, raspy angry noises in the back, better fuel consumption, tunability up the wazoo - all great. (well, except the tunability - you can have too much of a good thing, LOL).

Mostly twiddling part-throttle ignition/fuel lately but motor certainly run in now. Other day, tried to get the wastegate open and basically it didn't. Hit 10 PSI on the gauge and stayed there stable until time to shift. Car hit 1 bar just fine on the rollers with boost control when we did the WOT trim, but no danger of going to jail/dying in a fireball there..

And already knew the K27/HF was out-matched with the ports/EFI; had to remove fuel at the top when dyno tuning. Seems like it's worse than I thought; simply doesn't build boost in the lower gears before it's time to shift - has a G50/01, so rips through those gears pretty quick @ 165kPa..

It drives great off-boost and spools up fine - so seems turbo just doesn't move enough air. While not exactly slow - dyno'd 420 ft/lb & HP at the wheels - I do miss the "horizon on a rubber band" sensation that you should get on boost. That's gonna have to get fixed...

So time for a modern turbo I think... Build sheet:
  • 3.4 Nickies/8:1 JEs
  • SC cams
  • heads ported to 3.2 specs
  • 3.2 manifold
  • RarlyL8 42mm headers
  • Kokelyn
  • Pauter rods
  • Twin-plugged w/ Pepperwagon (Beru) COP
  • sequential injection
  • "Lightened" RoW muffler

And various other "ooh, shiny!" bits..

With CIS, Kokelyn & headers, the K27/HF made 6PSI @ 2400 with load, hit full boost (.8 bar) @ 3000-3200, and would be pretty interesting until it slowed down somewhere over 5000, where CIS was running out of fuel anyway. Peaked about 370 on the rollers, which used to seem adequate (you know how that goes).

So; really like quick throttle response/spool. All-in by 3000-3500 sounds about perfect. No objections at all to it pulling hard to redline (nominal 7K, motor should be fine to 8). Not overly bothered by peak HP, just seriously need the shove-in-the-back boost fix back.

Oh, and it's got skinny tires (255/40/17 RT615K+), 'coz tatty-looking SC flared-sleeper... So less drag racer, more surprisingly quick old sports car...

Been a while since I was looking at turbos.

GTX35R with billet (naturally) wheel looks like it'll get the job done. But there's the GSX61, and a crop of Precisions a few years ago that looked interesting.. Would either of those spool quicker still than the GTX? Make substantially more top-end? What are the current offerings/thinking?

Ideally, I'd like as close to bolt-up replacement for the K27 as possible - but at the end of the day, that's not as important as being happy with the final result.

You guys have already been such a bad influence - help me spend my money
I personally think your SC cams are whats holding you back... they max out around 5500 rpm. with your big ports and manifold you need at least 964 cams to get you some top end. with your compression/short gears, it won't suffer at low end. I went through this with 3 cam changes... Philip
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87 930 GHL/Rarlyl8/Garretson/GT3582R/1 Bar/Wevo shift, mounts/Meth inj/LM-2/Custom Fuchs/Carrera intake manifold/Xtreme Carrera heads P&P/3.4/DR 993SS cams/ Mahl/Pauter/JE/Niresist/ARP/twin COP/8.25:1/KEP stage 2/twin tials/close 2,3,4th. MS3Pro Evo 500+ HP, BTSOMP Dyno
Old 06-10-2018, 03:42 AM
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Call Chris at Turbokraft. He can give you advice from experience, as he has dealt with several configurations and variations. Most of us can't afford to try more than one or two over time.

Share with us what info you do find that you use in your decision
__________________
Emery

1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
stock 3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, B&B intercooler, Tial wastegate, Electromotive tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter
Old 06-10-2018, 04:03 AM
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Location: St. Louis , mo
Posts: 119
https://youtu.be/KBve2yqdHME
https://youtu.be/Pg_Dp_j9li4
The efi and rebuild was done at turbokraft.
Gtx 3076 vs gtx35r comparison
Old 06-10-2018, 06:34 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Glorious Pac NW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdj930 View Post
https://youtu.be/KBve2yqdHME
https://youtu.be/Pg_Dp_j9li4
The efi and rebuild was done at turbokraft.
Gtx 3076 vs gtx35r comparison
Heh - watched those already, before I posted. Very informative, and looks to be a sweet build, thanks for sharing!
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-10-2018, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s5uewf View Post
Call Chris at Turbokraft. He can give you advice from experience, as he has dealt with several configurations and variations. Most of us can't afford to try more than one or two over time.

Share with us what info you do find that you use in your decision
Heh. I already spoke with Chris, who was, as always, helpful, knowledgeable and generous with his time. It's actually entirely due to a conversation with Chris 7-8 years ago that my motor got JetHot all the way from the combustion chamber/piston crowns back to the turbo - which seems to have reduced cruising around oil temps some 10-15 degrees on the factory gauge, corroborated by the Motec sensor (and subjectively also seems to have considerably reduced engine bay temps, although that's pretty anecdotal)...

His recommendation was the GTX35R, and of course TK do a complete kit that takes care of everything; one snag/consideration is that the factory muffler apparently won't fit (packaging issue). But they've got a solution for that too, and like all their stuff it seems to be pretty well thought-out.

So I'm already fairly strongly leaning in this direction for convenience, just curious to know what other setups folks were running/opinions.

Because it'd be pretty boring if we all built the same car, right?
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-10-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Iíd avoid Precision like the plaque. Just saw one blow up the other day and the car was near 200MPH when the comp wheel went through the turbo and front tire. The Housingís are supposed to contain the wheels!!!
Yikes!

That's something you won't find reading tech specs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Anyways, I like my Borg S366, but you can get an S362 that is capable of nearly the same peak hp but runs a smaller turbine. Should on paper spool sooner, but Iím here to say mine spoils just fine.

GT35Rís spool quick, even on a stock port 3.3. Friend of mine had one on his 965. Beings youíre running 3.2 specs, lighting it up should be even easier.
Just looked at the BW models; hmmm... they do look pretty nice - and looks like it might be as close to a bolt-on replacement for a K27 as possible too.

But it's the 21st century - we were promised jet packs! Flying cars! Ball-Bearing turbos!

Seriously - that's about the only "con" I see with the BW; the journal bearing. Apart from that it seems to tick every box.

Would you say your S366 still spools better than say, a K27 hybrid? Seem to recall you experimented with a few different configurations, but don't recall if you ever ran one of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
But both above boost pretty linear. If you want sledgehammer boost, you may want to go with an old school T66 or T67.
Haha. I greatly prefer linear/predictable; much less nerve-racking. I have a set of snow tires/wheels, and I use them...

I still remember the 3DLZ semi-fondly, even though it scared me more than once; 100 less HP on the dyno - but felt like a sledgehammer to the chest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Thereís many modern turbos fitting the bill, just throwing out all the ones I personally ran or been around.

Iím sure many others will chime in.
Thanks for responding Tippy; something to think about
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-10-2018, 09:52 AM
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 215
I think that you need to figure out how much power you want to make, where you want to have peak power at and that will really help you focus in on turbos and might make you rethink your cam choice. And do not forget that unless you are also willing to change injectors and potentially fuel pumps, those will limit your top end as well.
Old 06-11-2018, 04:39 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 8,656
Iím not too sold on BB, and my DIY ways prevent me from owning one. If thereís a problem with my journal bearing turbo, I can fix it. Ball bearing, AFAIK, have to be rebuilt by the OEM.

Maybe things have changed??
Old 06-11-2018, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spuggy View Post
Heh. I already spoke with Chris, who was, as always, helpful, knowledgeable and generous with his time. It's actually entirely due to a conversation with Chris 7-8 years ago that my motor got JetHot all the way from the combustion chamber/piston crowns back to the turbo - which seems to have reduced cruising around oil temps some 10-15 degrees on the factory gauge, corroborated by the Motec sensor (and subjectively also seems to have considerably reduced engine bay temps, although that's pretty anecdotal)...

His recommendation was the GTX35R, and of course TK do a complete kit that takes care of everything; one snag/consideration is that the factory muffler apparently won't fit (packaging issue). But they've got a solution for that too, and like all their stuff it seems to be pretty well thought-out.

So I'm already fairly strongly leaning in this direction for convenience, just curious to know what other setups folks were running/opinions.

Because it'd be pretty boring if we all built the same car, right?
Forget the muffler. Run a straight pipe off the turbo out the passenger side. Itís not that loud unless you are in boost hard, and then it sounds awsome.
__________________
Chris
89 Carrera
89 Turbo; K27, Turbokraft intercooler, 964 cams, Fabspeed exhaust.
87 Turbo; EFI project.
86 Turbo; Ruf wannabe, 3.4 liter twin plug, 964 cams, lots of Ruf parts.
Old 06-11-2018, 09:42 PM
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E-85 sippin drunk
 
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 1,506
I have close to the same build on my engine.

3.3L that has 98mm JB Racing cylinders, and JE Pistons (8.3 to 1 CR)
crank stroked to 78.8MM
Carillo rods
ARP hardware throughout
extensive headwork
GT2 EVO cams
Rarlyl8 custom headers (burns collectors and bigger primaries
3.2L extrudhoned intake
Link G4+ ECU
Bosch coils
Twin plugged
M&W CDI ignition
dual WG's
yadda, yadda.....

I had a TiAL version of the Garrett GT35r turbo, and ended up killing the ceramic ball bearings. I went to the latest from Garrett... GTX3584RS
This was on the advice of Chris Carroll, and OMG what a turbo!!!!! Spools just as quick as my older turbo and that turbo is good for a 1000 hp... I did add a self contained water cooling system for this turbo, and I am confidant that I will no longer have to worry about the CHRA overheating or heat soak.

FWIW, I run a center dump exhaust off the turbo (zork) and a WG pipe on each side of the Zork... I absolutely LOVE the sound. Its not that loud for me, and the turbo whine is extremely noticeable.

I also need to get bigger injectors to hit my HP goals... I have ID 1000's in there now, and looking at the ID 1700's for the 26PSI on E85
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 06-12-2018, 05:45 AM
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E-85 sippin drunk
 
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 1,506
Here are a few photos....

[IMG]received_10213176051226595 by Brad, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]received_10213176052586629 by Brad, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]GTX3584RS VS GT35R Compressor view by Brad, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]GTX3584RS vs GT35R Turbine side view by Brad, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]20170627_115050 by Brad, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 06-12-2018, 06:03 AM
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That's a nice build!
Old 06-12-2018, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crb07 View Post
Forget the muffler. Run a straight pipe off the turbo out the passenger side. Itís not that loud unless you are in boost hard, and then it sounds awsome.
Hahahahaha - because the turbo's a "rotatary muffler" and it's not that loud?

Snork. BTDT - when I bought the car, you could roll a baseball through the straight pipe. It did sound rather impressive in tunnels on boost... But I just couldn't live with it long term. Plus my neighbors would have killed me eventually,

I ran open pipes on an ironhead Sportster in my yoof - thought I was OK with loud until I drove that car. First road trip (600 miles), I knew the exhaust had to go.

One of the clues was - if you're idling through a parking lot in 1st and car alarms are going off 50ft away? Well, yeh, that's just too freakin' loud.

Plus it's a bit too much of a trick to look innocent when it sounds like a funny car at idle...
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-12-2018, 06:50 AM
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Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Glorious Pac NW
Posts: 2,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrat930 View Post
I have close to the same build on my engine.

3.3L that has 98mm JB Racing cylinders, and JE Pistons (8.3 to 1 CR)
crank stroked to 78.8MM
Carillo rods
ARP hardware throughout
extensive headwork
GT2 EVO cams
Rarlyl8 custom headers (burns collectors and bigger primaries
3.2L extrudhoned intake
Link G4+ ECU
Bosch coils
Twin plugged
M&W CDI ignition
dual WG's
yadda, yadda.....

I had a TiAL version of the Garrett GT35r turbo, and ended up killing the ceramic ball bearings. I went to the latest from Garrett... GTX3584RS
This was on the advice of Chris Carroll, and OMG what a turbo!!!!! Spools just as quick as my older turbo and that turbo is good for a 1000 hp... I did add a self contained water cooling system for this turbo, and I am confidant that I will no longer have to worry about the CHRA overheating or heat soak.

FWIW, I run a center dump exhaust off the turbo (zork) and a WG pipe on each side of the Zork... I absolutely LOVE the sound. Its not that loud for me, and the turbo whine is extremely noticeable.

I also need to get bigger injectors to hit my HP goals... I have ID 1000's in there now, and looking at the ID 1700's for the 26PSI on E85

Well, sheesh! That looks, uh, very impressive

I was looking at the posts you did about your water-cooling system a while ago, very neat/trick. I was hoping to avoid putting more weight in the back though...

I have no need to upsize my 1000cc injectors; plenty of capacity there for me
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 06-12-2018, 07:01 AM
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Brando
 
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Location: Las vegas
Posts: 5,869
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EFR Series from borg warner should be looked at. light weight wheels.
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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 06-12-2018, 08:54 AM
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Turbofrog
 
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Location: Europe
Posts: 1,422
Brad: has that 8.3 to 1 CR & E85 & 26psi been done with GT2 EVO cams before and tested ok?

"3.3L that has 98mm JB Racing cylinders, and JE Pistons (8.3 to 1 CR)
extensive headwork
GT2 EVO cams"
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79 930: HX40S#16, MS3pro+ID1000+044+E85, Ignition: 123/TUNE/MSD6A, True split BB, 2*turbosmart38
Old 06-12-2018, 07:45 PM
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Posts: 223
I thought the Gtx3584r6 was the same turbo as the gtx35?With the same housing just different eternals but looking at them side by side the 84r6 looks bigger everywhere.What was the difference as far as power?Thanks

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Old 06-13-2018, 06:21 PM
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