Rebuilding a 2.7 myself - What will it cost?
 

I've been reading through the threads and picking up the pieces here and there, but can we do a run down of what it will cost in material, tools and machine shop work for _me_ to rebuild my 2.7

I am pretty sure that I have a loose cylinder (Lots of noise and blue/white smoke coming out of the engine compartment, but not the exhaust).

I've seen the gasket kit for around $170. I've seen kits which included the bearings (well, not the nose bearing) and the gaskets for around $380. I'm sure I would add valve springs. What about tools? I've read the great stand debate. P&Cs, refinishing and recoating vs new? Case inserts and "normal" case work? Obviously going to do the standard upgrades (Chain tensioner).

I am definitely a do it myself-er and I am not afraid of doing the rebuild myself. I'm not trying to build a monster motor either. I want to get my 911 running and reliable.

James

Well it could cost an easy $2000, doing it yourself. Replacing all the cylinder bolts, timeserts, case work, ie line bore, cylinders, pistons or just pistons and rings, rod bolts and nuts, flywheel bolts, that red or orange gasket stuff, valve job, regrind valves, seats or more likely new guides, plus some valves, plus grinding and seat work, resizing rods, new wrist pin retainers, crank may or may not need work. See Bruce Andersons book " Porsche 911 Performance Handbook" For a complete engine rebuilding checklist and related costs.

Try closer to $4K. I'm doing a 2.7 right now, and if you have Alusil Cylinders like I do, you will probably have to replace them. I was trying to save as much money as possible, and here is my breakdown.

Machining $1,102
Parts $957
RS Pistons/Cyl $1,400
Cams (used) $350

Here is the detail on the parts I am buying:

Rebuild Kit $471
Flywheel Bolts $54
Intake Valves $120
Exaust Valves $234
Valve Springs $78

Here is the detail on the machining:

Line-bore Case $175
Install case savers $240
Oil Bypass mod $110
MagnaFlux Crank $30
MicroPolish Crank $30
Rebuild Rods $132
Grind valve seats $96
Replace v Guides $144
Rebuild Rockers $200


...and keep in mind I'm skipping a lot of steps that others consider manditory. Also, some of the best known machine shops will charge twice this amount.

I believe I have the early Mahle P&C's. I'd prefer not to replace them unless necessary. The primary reason for rebuild is to install the case savers, but it's one of those - if you're gonna do that, you might as well do the whole thing...

Engine has about 80K on it. I would expect that the internals are probably pretty good, but covered in muck from sitting (Engine sat for 6 years, probably with the pulled cylinder stud).

Hmmmm.

What parts are must replace, ie like the rod nuts, that cannot under any circumstance be reused?

James

James

Also, I've spent over $1K on the special 911 engine tools, but I've probably gone overboard. most can also be rented or borrowed. This is what I think is necessary:

P 10c Valve Spring Height Tool
P 20 Metric Dial Indicator
P 135 Flywheel Bolt Socket
P 140 Cylinder Head Securing Nut Set (6)
P 201 Engine Assembly Stand
P 201a Flywheel Lock
P 202 Camshaft Socket, 911-81
P 203 Camshaft Nut Crowsfoot, 46mm
P 204 Chain Sprocket Holder
P 207 Dial Gauge Bracket, Camshaft Timing
P 208 V-Belt Pulley Wrench, 911-1974
P 212 Camshaft Dowel Pin Extractor
P 213a Valve Adjust Feeler Gauge, .10mm
P 217 Heat Exchanger Nut 13mm Bent Wrench

I'm sure I've missed some. The chain and rod props are too expensive to justify. There are creative ways to do this.

When I said an easy $2000 I mean you would be lucky to get by at this price. The only way is to be lucky and not need much of anything, do a whole lot that most people would not do, and so forth. This is when a professional rebuilder, who can get parts for prices you can only dream about, looks pretty good.

YOu must replace rod bolts, rod nuts, and flywheel bolts. They can only be fully tightened ONE TIME. Although many do not you are risking loosing the whole engine if you do not replace them. These are designed as stretch bolts. That means you tighten them up so much that they permanently stretch a little. They can take one time for certain, additional times uses up the safty margin. Problem is the margin varies so much that the second time might be the time that does it, unfortunately there is no way to tell.

Be careful of junk, no name, and counterfit rod bolts. I have come across them. Good bolts will always be marked with the mfg, and will fit as well as the old ones did. It the new bolts are sloppy fitting, or not marked take them back and demand ones that are marked.

The best way to tighten rod nuts is not torque but to measure bolt stretch. A dial indicator is mounted to measure the length of the rod bolt while it is in the rod and being tightened. When the rod bolt stretched to 0.004" to 0.006" it is tight. The torque needed to do the same thing can vary by as much as 50%.

rebuild kits
 

Hi, i've been lookn' for a 74 too pick up, but i've been pricing engine rebuilds as well, i think going w/ a kit would be the best way to go, but i've only found about two places that sell them.. and from what i've heard about motor meister (spelling) is that they arn't all that great. I would do the rebuild myself that is not a problem. Where would you recomend geting quality engine rebuild kits, or parts from?
thanks
Ed

... and don't forget all the little stuff that adds up too...
carb/engine cleaners - husband went through quite a few bottles to clean the case before re-assembling the bottom end - loctite - precision calipers - 2 cases of motor oil - string, clasps, metal sheets, spray paint, wires, bags, zipties, wire holders, airflow meter, mini torque wrench, "special" tool this that and the other (i think he just wanted to add to his tool collection;) )

As for rebuild kits, we bought ours here at pelican with the gasket kit and other stuff too.

Kits are the way to go. You get more parts for less that way. As to where to get them from, I do not personally know. but I suspect that Pelican is competative with the others.

I have about $3k invested in an engine rebuild of a '82 911SC Euro. I am waiting for my final machine shop bill for crankcase head studs, cam case cleaning, oil cooler clean and pressure test, micropolish crankshaft and glass bead some parts and sheet metal. I am anticipating $500. Then there are the gaskets and seals. I'm not sure if Pelican has the complete set. I have been dealing with Don at Engine Builders for most of the engine parts because they have the small stuff. (I broke almost all of my exhaust studs.) I figured another $600. for gaskets and seals. I have Mahle cylinders (one had to be re-plated) and I purchased 9.8:1 JE pistons. I also had my cams reground to 964 specs. All told the grand total will be slightly over $4k and I am doing this the on a budget over a long period of time rather than skimp a little here and there just to get it done.

Where did you get your Cylinder recoated and what was the cost?

James

Wow, this thread abounds with lots of mis-information.

First of all, I will be putting 'kits' together for the website within the next week or so. Pelican sells every stud, nut and washer used on the engines - it's all in our catalog with handy photos to boot:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M_catalog.htm

All of the information asked about in this thread is in Chapters 1-4 of the new book. Costs, what to replace, etc...

Count on $6K to rebuild the engine yourself. My machine work alone came out to be about $3300 by itself. This is of course, 'doing it right' and not skipping any steps.

Here is a thread where I posted the machine shop costs:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73627&highlight=Competi tion+Engineering+case+heads

-Wayne

What about reconditioning cylinders?

James

Wow, is it all really misinformation or just someone else’s opinion?

I have read your books cover to cover and have a great deal of respect for your work and your approach. I am sincerely grateful for the time and energy you have put into the book, this bulletin board and the 911 community.

However, I believe there is a diversity of opinions and approaches out there on many of the subjects covered and I personally want to hear it discussed freely. The reason I read this board is to hear the opinion of others. It almost sounds like you are letting people have it for dissenting. Sorry if I'm overreacting.

I have had an ongoing dialogue with Wayne about the cost of a rebuild for months. Wayne is a do-it-right-or-don't-do-it-at-all kind of guy. He's very serious about this stuff. There are other dimentions to this approach. I can't seem to completely agree that nothing short of the full monty is but a halfassed job. I could, quite frankly, put a set of used P & C's in an engine as well as used cams. There are some things that you can't take any short cuts on. If I had to accept the premise that any engine is going to cost over six large, I would never be able to own a 911 again. And that is out of the question.

James:
JP is pretty much right on. I would go with his costs for machine work, etc. I spent $900 for JE pistons and about $1700 for new nikasyl cylinders and about $750 on coatings for my 2.7. The whole thing cost a pretty penny. But, I did what I could to make the engine last. What I did was disassemble everything, take everything to Motorworks ( a couple of us emailed you about them) on Island in S.D. and have them do the machine work and assemble the engine. They assembled it for $600 plus some odds & ends. Since I haven't put together an engine for a long time, I decided to pay to have it done for the peace of mind. I'm looking forward to putting it in my '69 someday - that is when I get time. Good luck.

They only charged $600 to put it together? Wow! That sounds like a Deal. Is this dealing with Bert or anyone specific?

I would agree that it should cost as little as $2000 and as much as $6000. It seems as though people tend to be parts changers rather than inspecting and then making a decision. I rebuilt my 2.7 out a 74 911 with 50,000 mile on it. I measured piston to cylinder clearances and crank to crank case clearances basically everything but nothing was out of spec. That being said I had no machining done so it cost me about $1200 bucks including new rings, 8 bearings mains, rod bolts, rod nuts, rod bearings,gasket set , valve job with new guides, and new timing chains. The tools were all made by me so there was no cost on that. My point of all this is that you can do it right for a cheap price if you inspect and evualate what you have properly.

Ben

That was about a year ago. You can look in the phone book & call them to find out. I dealt mostly with Albert, but I think he may have retired. They are all really trustworthy people. If I remember right, I spent about $1200 total on machine work I that included an align hone to put oversized bearings in the case. I bought the parts here and there, some from Pelican. When you are looking at a couple of grant for machine work & assembly plus whatever parts you buy (I put ARP rod bolts, etc. in mine), you're looking at probably 3 to 4 grand plus any things like pistons & cylinders, valves, etc. Not cheeeep!

My primary goal is to get the engine running. This week I'll know for sure what is wrong with the engine, but I'm suspecting pulled case studs. I'd like to have case savers installed, but beyond that, I don't think much else should need to be done, unless I have cylinder damage.

I'll give them a call. I run into Bert down at the Princess every once in a while.

But Something on the order of $1000 for the Case savers, installation and then reassembly, that would be pretty darn good.

James

You can get Nikasil cylinders replated through Engine Buiders Supply. I think it was $150. for each cylinder. It's a bargain if you don't want to buy all six new cylinders. I had to do my rebuild because of a piston ring failure and subsequent detonation on the side of 1 piston. I could have found one used piston and cylinder, but the ring lands on the other 5 pistons were at their maximum tolerance so I chose to replace all of the pistons with JE pistons. If more of my cylinders needed replacing I would have gone for the Mahle P/C set...that would have cost another $1500 over just the JE's. The cylinder, pistons and a few broken valve springs were the only things I had to replace aside from a few worn out rockers. It's a big ??? how much $$$ it's going to cost you. I think my +/-$4k is on the low side of a rebuild.

Just got off the Phone with Sergio at Motorwerks:

Disasemble and re-assemble $700
Valve job - grind and new guides $400
Installation of Case Savers $175

Parts are extra and he recommends I "Find them myself". He thinks with the low milage, that the cylinders should be able to be re-used (won't know until it's apart).

James

James:
Sergio did the work on my engine. He's a great guy! Those prices sound pretty reasonable. Sounds like they haven't changed at all since I had work done there. Be prepared to spend some more for unforseen things that are needed once they look at the inside of the engine. You may have to spring for a rebiuld kit, hydraulic tensioner kit, etc. I think Sergio is actually the owner, a great machinist and knows tons about older Porsche stuff. He calles himself a dinosaur when it comes to Porsche. He knows the old stuff and has worked on it for decades. If your engine has parts in it that are OK to reuse, they won't try to screw you into buying new ones.

See here regarding my comments on cutting corners:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/102885-cutting-corners-911-engine-rebuilds.html

-Wayne

I just feel that rebuilding something you should not be parts replacers but rather inspect and only replace what is required. I have worked on aircraft engines for several years and follow strict FAA rules along with engine manufactures requirements and I don't just replace things for the heck of it unless it is out of spec. I agree that you can not do things half a**ed but also to not spend 6 grand on a stock rebuild . Most times when this happens it due to some one trying to make a buck which is wrong but does happen in this market but hey thats just my opnion

Ben

75 914-6
77 911s 3.0

The rebuilt engine from Stoddard is starting to look pretty good?? At the price they want and what they replaced, you probably can not beat it, but then again they are a rebuilder, and get prices and savings othes cannot even imagine. For a fixed price you get everythng. Its a fixed price you cannot beat if you do all they do and you must do all they do to do it right.

Saving a couple of bucks for a part hear or there is a clue that the person rebuilding the engine isn't the one you really want to do the job. You may think you save but you do not.

I get the best price for parts because I am an avid enthuseist who does enough per year to get the jobbers prices, ie about 30 percent of what you all pay at your best price. This really changes your outlook on what you do or do not replace. YOu ask yourself do you really want to risk the whole thing on "this many dollars"? YOu end up saying no, unless you are from south of the border. No offense, but you all know EXACTLY what I mean. We don't do things that way in der fatherland.

I agree sounds like a good plan. I just felt that acessment is the key to a good engine rebuild not just throw money at it as many do.

Ben

Sounds like you're having some success Red-Beard; Good Luck!
If you're on a tight budget then that's one thing? If you're not then I'd recommend going with the whole Shabang? I just did my engine (wish I'd had Wayne's book - but I think I got it covered?) and did everything I possibly could including machine work to SC Carrera Specs.

To me, "Down Time" is not acceptable!!!! Here in Canada we drive for only part of the year - and a pit stop during peak season is such a drag; so when I'm in the pit, I'm doing all I can to make sure there's no interuptions in my summer enjoyment period.

Bye the way, this is "Wayne's" board representing "His" company and a little respect would be appreciated. If you don't agree with the man, show a little restraint. Not particularily on this thread, but I'm awed by how rude some people can be to the moderators and Wayne????

I appreciate this board so much, that I'll buy my parts from Wayne whenever I can, even if they're a little more $$$, the information I've obtained from this board has saved me thousands!!!!!

Thanks Wayne!!!
(I'm still gauking at the 930 steering wheel, SS bezels and Aluminum pedal set???? - Just waiting for my final bills to show up on my rebuild and to have her running sweet before I get the plastic out and order it all up!)

I'm used to people being rude - it's the Internet. They are very rarely rude to my face, and when they are, I have plenty to say.

Most of the people here are trying to find shortcuts and ways to avoid paying $8K for a rebuild. The only true shortcut I know is to do it yourself. That will save about $2K or $2,500 off the cost of reassembly. By the way, disassemble and reassemble for $700 is rediculously inexpensive. This Sergio fellow must be starving. It's about 40 hours labor to assemble a 911 engine carefully and correctly, performing all of the measurements and checks along the way.

Sure, you can find places to cut corners, but nothing in life is free - you will pay for it later on. It's like people who smoke - they just have their head burried in the sand and are in denial. If you cut corners, you significantly increase the chances that your engine will leak, or that it will not last very long at all. If you're fine with that, then great! But if you want to do it right and not slap it together, then you need to pay attention to detail, use the correct tools, replace out-of-spec parts (this includes pistons and cylinders), and take your time.

It is my opinion that you can do a better job armed with my new book, than you will get from a professional mechanic. Why? Because most people will take the time to perform all the checks and measurements completely and correctly. This is not something that you want to rush...

Regardless, Ben - you are right and wrong at the same time. Parts should indeed only be replaced if they are worn out and need replacement. However, that $6K figure is very easy to reach with worn out parts. The machine work alone on my 2.7L was $3K. See the link earlier in this thread. New P&Cs were $1500. The rest just adds up. Don't believe me? I have tables and charts based on actual costs of parts in chapter one of the new book...

-Wayne

I agree that $700 for disassembly and assembly is inexpensive, but I wouldn't automatically brand a shop you don't know anything about as suspect. And, I totally understand what Wayne is saying - and it really does apply in most cases. Sergio is the owner of the place and doesn't need to work, since its not a financial necessity for him. He is an old timer and maybe hasn't caught up with the going rate. He has been working on Porsche engines for over 40 years. His machine shop is a pretty big operation around for decades, where most of the local independents and dealers take their machine work to be done, and have for many years. In fact, it was one of the better known (Deiters) shops here who referred me to him saying that's where they took their out of house machine work. The engine work is sort of a side line with Sergio. He does it because he likes it. Maybe if he quintupled his prices people would actually be happier. Maybe those of us in the San Diego area should have kept out mouths shut and not shared, so we don't mess things up for ourselves.

As history tells it, you get what you pay for. There are indeed exceptions to this rule, but they are few and far between. Proceed with caution when having anyone perform your rebuild. The best thing you can do is arm yourself with new information (one of the reasons why I wrote the book - so people wouldn't be taken advantage of).

For comparison, Walt Watson (Competition Engineering) charges $600 for the short block assembly, $1450 for the long block assembly, and $2500 to bolt the whole thing back together complete. I think that those prices are very reasonable for someone who has as much knowledge as Walt.

Serge may be the best deal going in Engine Rebuilding - I have no idea. I had never heard of him before reading this post...

-Wayne

Wayne,

Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page. Machine work is were it gets you. I often look at the price of the piston and cylinder kits and wonder if they are made of solid gold or what but hey it is a porsche. I still can't say they are not worth it

Ben
75 914-6 (2.7)
77 911s (3.0)

Well, honestly? I think that you guys should be thankful that Mahle is still making these things to begin with. The 3.0L set is $3000, which is $500/piston and cylinder. If these were no longer available, I would have people begging to buy them from me at that price. This is what is happening with some of the older 2.2 pistons and cylinder sets right now...

-Wayne

Oh trust me I am not cutting on you or your company it just seems expensive for 6 piston and cylinders. Although I must also mention That I rebuilt a ROTAX aircraft engine (made in austria) 2 cylinders alone were 1800 bucks and each piston with rings only were $189 each. So my point being it is simply a european thing. I am glad they are still available just excited about the price . I am from an industrial back ground and have seen pistons made from scratch. It is not as exciting as some might think. Just food for thought.

Ben
914-6
911s

Any clue how the LN Engineering replacements stack up against the Mahle's ?

James

Another way to save is to sign up for an engine class at your local community college, that is if you are lucky enough to live in an area that offers one. You can then do all your own machining and save big. You can also find where to buy some of the more common stuff, like valve guides and valves at reasonable prices. If you are energetic you can also buy chevy parts, like stainless valves, machine them the the correct size and save big time. The college I attend even has balancing equipment. Think of it , a complete engine balance to less than one gram for free!

Actually you can also do things like a valve job, in your garage. You can buy just what you need. Neway cutters for intake and exhaust, a pilot, a driver and you are almost in business for less than the cost of a valve job. You can have someone else grind the valves, use new valves, or buy an inexpensive valve grinder tool, or make your own valve grinder tool using a drill press and a homemade grinder. The only thing you might have trouble doing at home is the valve seats, but they are usually good, if recut.

beam me up scotty, wrong planet.