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Three Bond 1184 Winter garage assembly

Hi everyone,

1989 911 3.2 complete engine rebuild. After some delays, I am back on with my assembly process. Next step is assembly with sealants of the camshaft carriers. Couple questions:

1. It is extremely cold here near Minneapolis. I am assembling in my garage. With heaters I can get the immediate assembly area up to about 45 degrees F or so with a little effort. I am planning to use Three Bond 1184 at the carrier / head mating surfaces. Is there an assembly temp guideline anywhere? Will I have less time to get everything torqued down in cold vs. warm weather? Of course, because of delay I want to get going again, but if I'm going to have the 1184 set up before I get things torqued down, I'll wait, or leave heaters on and see how warm I can get it.

2. Can someone please iterate again how much time I have between first application of 1184, and having all fasteners torqued down?

3. I'm planning on putting a very light coating of Loctite 574 on both sides of copper cylinder base gaskets. Some people mention use of Curil-T. Is one noticebly better different than another?

4. If I do put Loctite 574 or Curil T on base gaskets, can I drop the cylinders down and have light pressure on them without the curing starting, or do I need to leave gap without gaskets touching case or cylinders? I assume I want to have the 1184 application be the last thing I do before putting the carrier on and starting the race against time to get all washers/nuts started, initial torque, and then final torque?

Thanks for any thoughts or advice!

Mark

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Old 12-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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Sealant

The three bond, yamabond, Honda bond is so thick and needs to apply to both surfaces because cure starts so fast.
If you want the thickness, aviation permatex stays constantly playable
My choice for many years has been 574 on center case and heads to cam carrier.
Bruce


Old 12-15-2019, 07:29 PM
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I was under the impression that Curil-T doesn't cure. Doesn't seem like it cured when I take something I used it on apart again - still sticky. That's why I like it for non-critical applications (like the base gaskets, but why coat both sides? The bottom should do?).

Am I wrong about curing?
Old 12-16-2019, 05:04 PM
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HI Walt,

I guess I was thinking if oil can sneak between the bottom of the copper base gasket and the block, then it can sneak between the top of the gasket and the cylinder. I'll go look at the assembly again tonight after work.

Would really like an answer from the intelligentia regarding your 574 and Curil-T and curing (or not). Sure would be one less thing to worry about if I'm not concerned about the 574 clock ticking once cylinders are snugged down and camshaft carrier is in place ready for torquing.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:31 AM
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Curil-T does not cure. 574 is anaerobic and starts to cure when cut off from air. I like Curil-t on cylinder base gaskets. 574 does not seam to harden nearly as quick as 1184. I have used both at cam tower to head and case sealing with good results.

john
Old 12-17-2019, 12:40 PM
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I also did Curil T on copper base gaskets. Henry Schmidt recommends it. Like the other guys say it doesnt cure.
Old 12-17-2019, 07:22 PM
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assembly temperature

Wow,this is very scary to read.With heaters you can get the air temperature up to 45?What is the engine temp after being cold for so long?I was taught to assemble these engines between 65 to 80 degrees for accurate torque values.I have worked in a cold shop before.Your only option is to assemble the heads to the cam towers in the warmth of your home then bring them out to the motor.Install the assembly and torque to 12 lbs.If you do not have a radiator style mineral oil heater look on Craigslist.Used are $15-20.Place under motor and put a thick blanket over the motor.After an hour remove blanket and monitor block temp until it cools down to around 70.Torque head nuts to spec then install rockers and adjust cam timing.Good luck
Old 12-18-2019, 05:34 AM
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Go online and obtain the TDS for each product, I wouldn't assemble an engine in 45 degrees.
Aluminum and cold condensation don't mix. Your just adding more variables that could lead to leaks.
Old 12-18-2019, 05:50 AM
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I wrench on anything including all kinds of engines at down to 35F and have done so for 40 years. Miserable but no ill effects so far. I prefer threebond 1184 too. I see a benefit in longer set-up times
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Last edited by trond; 12-18-2019 at 08:49 AM..
Old 12-18-2019, 08:47 AM
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Thanks for all of the feedback guys. My prebuild for measuring valve piston clearance was all done assembling everything as one complete assembly, so I really don't want to deviate from that process, knowing cams spun freely. I think I will wait until I'm sure I can get work area and block in to the 60's F at least.

Trond, your comments about setup time with the 1184 are really a focus for me now. When I assembled the block, I realized how quickly 1184 skins over and already starts to cure somewhat. My concern is having a situation where the 1184 starts to cure to the point where it is going to impact flatness of carrier.

I think my plan will be to do several trial runs of assembly and torquing to see just how long it all takes me, and then ask forum if you think I'm going to have issues. As much as I want to be fast enough, I just can't possibly do this as quickly as people that do it on a regular basis. For people like me, following the ultimate sealant thread guidelines may have a presumption of cycle time of assembly. If you can do things in under X minutes, use 1184, if more than that, use 574. Or vice versa.

Also thank you for the feedback on the base gaskets. for the record, Curil-T on both sides, or just the block side?

Thanks for everyone's patience...

mark
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Old 12-18-2019, 11:17 AM
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574 is good but I am officially a much bigger fan of Loctite 515. 515 has far more tensile strength, same consistency, and has far superior heat aging characteristics over 574, and is for more readily available in the US not to mention far cheaper.
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Old 12-18-2019, 12:15 PM
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Engine assembly in the kitchen.........

Mark,

My wife wanted to go Australia in January (summertime down under) a few years ago and decided not to with her. After she left for Sydney, I began an engine assembly in the kitchen. All the cleaning and preparation were done in the unheated garage. Parts were brought in and allowed to acclimatize before assembly. My wife could not stand the smell of oil and cleaning solvents and would never tolerate having her kitchen as my work area. Of course, I did not mention my plan to assemble a motor before she left.

A week after she left for Australia to visit her mother, I concocted a story about meeting a German beauty named Greta. A natural beauty that needed some tender loving care for she was abused and neglected in the past.



She was away for 4 weeks and was motivated to get the engine assembled and out of the kitchen before she got home. This was a few years ago and today, my wife allows me to do the engine assembly in the basement than working in the freezing garage.

I dont know your situation at home. But I have been married to this wonderful woman for 53 years and I knew she will support me till death do us part. Why cant you bring the motor inside the house just for the assembly? And bring it out after it has been assembled? Good luck.

Tony
Old 12-18-2019, 03:44 PM
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Inside the house

Love you Tony.You are correct.Fred
Old 12-18-2019, 06:06 PM
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The 1184 does not cure too fast. Under the force of the six studs per head the stuff squishes very nicely.

My personal experience is the 1184 does a great job, and when I pulled the heads apart the remnants were primarily around the perimeter of the contact surfaces and a very slight haze of 1184 in the contact surfaces. After a couple of years no leaks.

Curil-T works well on the copper gasket and does not cure. It just stays very sticky and seems to be a little bit fluid to absorb motion of the cylinder to the case.

Id check the 1184 product sheets to see how cold it can be used before cant cure. My basement can get into the mid 50s and it still cured.

Can you bench assemble the 3 heads (like the picture earlier in this thread) onto the cam tower in your basement?
Old 12-18-2019, 06:28 PM
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I would not be too concerned with the skin taht forms, still takes a while for 1184 to cure fully and seem to squeeze out fine. I have never seen that as an issue. As opposed to Locktite 574 that, if too much and too slow to tighthen up it may an issue
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Old 12-18-2019, 11:29 PM
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I recently bought a commercial building with some space to rent and several garage bays for me to tinker with my cars. I'm taking my time to get insulation and proper heat installed before I move in as we have a lot of sub freezing nights at this altitude. I don't work near as well or as quickly when I'm all bundled up, and then you have problems with things not drying properly, etc. I would suggest that the OP look at the big picture and consider some garage improvements to make his time out there much more enjoyable. I have family in Stllwater, MN, right across the (frozen) river from Hudson, and have spent a few winter hours in a garage doing repairs. No substitute for good insulation and enough heat.
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Old 12-19-2019, 05:42 AM
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Hi everyone,

Thanks for all of the great advice. Especially on the 1184.

I have some analysis to do... heat garage or assemble in workshop in basement. I Do have exposed basement door to outside but 32" so no go with the engine stand. Would need to carry it thru door...

Or, work on other things and wait til spring... This project has already been epic.

thanks again,

Mark
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:46 AM
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You are looking it the wrong way..........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauner View Post
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all of the great advice. Especially on the 1184.

I have some analysis to do... heat garage or assemble in workshop in basement. I Do have exposed basement door to outside but 32" so no go with the engine stand. Would need to carry it thru door...

Or, work on other things and wait til spring... This project has already been epic.

thanks again,

Mark

Mark,

If your access door to the basement is 32 wide, that is more than sufficient. I have the same size door to my kitchen shown in the picture I posted earlier. A fully assembled Porsche 911 complete long block measures approximately 32 wide, 25 long, and 16 high.

Imagine or visualize a wooden crate or box that measures 32x 25x 16. Even if your door is only 24 wide, you would have enough room to get the crate through. After you finished the engine assembly (complete long block), roll the heavy motor out.

I will be 77 years old next month and weighs less than 140 lbs. soaked and wet, with a herniated disc and a bad knee, yet I have no problem getting a 911 motor from my basement with 12-steps stair case by my self. How did I do it alone? Safety was my main concern when I first did it and I have moved about half a dozen motors since then.









I will bring up another motor in a few months after I completed the rebuild this winter. Good luck.

Tony
Old 12-20-2019, 02:05 PM
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Hi Tony and everyone. Got everything moved from the garage to my basement workshop. Was easier than I had imagined to get it thru the door on the stand.

Thanks for the advice!

Mark
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:39 PM
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basement rocks

Much more conducive for a good build.Ciao Fred

Old 12-22-2019, 02:19 PM
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