re-use JE wrist circlips
 

I was installing pistons and cylinders today and was not focussing properly so only noticed after assembly that I had used two different cylinder base gasket, 0,25 mm on three cylinders and 0,5 mm on the others. I guess it was the stress on getting those JE circlips in while bleeding from several fingers. Very tough those guys, never seen anything like that before thankfully. I had to resort to the stomski tool which I don't feel comfortable with as it appears to bend the clips more than I like but how anyone can install these JE clips with fingertips is beyond me. I was crying and bleeding and swearing but got nowhere. And after a long day I found i have to redo 3 cylinders ....

Question is how about re-using the JE wire (866-063-MW) wrist pin circlips ? It will take weeks to get new ones flown in. I have ordered new ones regardless and I will see if I can measure any loss of diamerter / deformation from the 26 mm they had when I unpacked. If they still measure 26 mm I suppose it should OK to re-use?

I really want to get the car together as soon as possible and having to wait for weeks is beyond painful

Please advice

Treating a circlip as a spring, if it has not exceeded its elastic limit it should be good. If you have an unused one handy, you could compare its diameter with your used ones. Bent should mean elastic limit exceeded? Springs get reused all the time.

Some types of circlip depend on other features maybe, like a sharp edge on the kind with two holes so you can use a tool to squeeze? But not these (or the factory ones).

Shops doubtless never reuse - why take a chance, spend the time checking something not all that expensive, etc.

I've reused mine. Hated them, never got an answer if the kind with ears and holes would work, or Spiraloks, etc. And I've bent some - those I haven't reused.

I've used the Stomski tool with no issues. Just follow the instructions on how to install the circlip.
It takes a few tries to get it right but then your good. I've used it on two engines now and the tool was a a time saver. I modified a small screwdriver to help in stall the circlip into the barrel part of the tool.
It's just a small V shaped notch on a small flat head screwdriver.

I keep a file handy when I'm doing this job to smooth out the rough edges of the new clips. Helps save the fingers and prevent scratches on the pistons.

Given the amount of effort that is required to install and remove the JE clips "manually" I would not reuse them. I recall the factory documentation indicates the Mahle clips should not be reused. But I can't find where it's stated. Not sure if it's in the factory service manual or in the spec books. I looked in the spec book and didn't see it mentioned in there.

JE clips are bears for everybody and you need to make sure they aren't over-stressed when installing them and also make sure they're well seated in the groove

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/937440-je-wire-locks-cautionary-tale.html

In that thread I linked above, there's some good Mahle Motorsports videos on circlips

To Walt's point, apparently the clips with legs are used on the 993 pistons. Even those are recommended to be replaced

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589480571.jpg

Forgot to post the picture from the parts diagram as well

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589481098.jpg

Factory recommendations are always worth considering. A highly experienced group of engineers has got to have a better handle on matters like this than any of us lay people.

However, somehow these folks got the rod bolts wrong for the GT3s a couple of years ago. They failed to have a fuse protecting the footwell blowers in the 1984 Carrera 3.2s. Perfection is elusive.

Not everybody follows the factory advice all the time. The shop manuals say you don't have to remove old orange Loctite sealer, because the thin new layer you apply will dissolve the remnant thin old layer. Being inclined to take short cuts, that's just what I do. But you see most working hard to remove every last spec before reassembly.

Porsche says that rod bolts should not be reused, and neither should rod nuts. We know from ARP and others that if you can confirm that the bolts haven't been stretched beyond their elastic limit, you can reuse them. I've never seen an explanation as to why, even for stock rod bolts which are stressed much closer to their limit than the usual super bolt, you can't reuse the nuts. If you fiddle with cars long enough, you have seen broken bolts of one sort or another. But nuts?

A wrist pin coming loose is a disaster, no question. But just what is the mechanism which makes a used wire clip incapable of doing its job? Head studs and through bolts get reused, as do their nuts. So do valve springs. There are no obvious large sideways forces on wrist pins. If a clip hasn't been distorted, just how is it less likely to stay in place?

Easy to say they are cheap, so why not just replace. Makes sense for shops, like buying a variety of small parts new to save on the labor costs of cleaning old ones. No decisions, and if they do a lot of motors, there is a bin full of new ones.

Not the same situation as a guy in his garage in the Outback who finds himself one new piece short.

There is a thread on the JE clips that checked if they get distorted on install. I recall that it was found that the Stromki tool deformed the clips permanently. I cant remember if it was in the rebuilding forum or air cooled. Thru testing the poster found a method that caused the minimum amount of clip distortion. A search on these JE clips returns lots of people having issues.

John

I have never seen anything like these JE clips. Is it even possible to install them at all ? Hours bleeding and crying in the garage for one clips. I have ordered 10 more from the other side of the globe and need to wait a couple of weeks for them to arrive before I continue trying. Will give my fingers some time to heal I guess. And I will lose first outing with the car. Only way to get them in is that Stomski tool which seem to permanently deform the clips. How are others doing those JE clips ? Others i always could manage with fingertips but not these

The je clips are a spiral design. You must grab each end and pull them apart to make a spiral spring. Then you insert one end and coil the rest in. It's a great design once you understand the concept.

FlyingJ - I don't follow. The JE clips are a semi-circle, maybe 80-90%, made of a piece of round wire. They are rather similar to the stock Porsche clips, but lack the locating tab those clips have. But otherwise are the same - you have to compress them laterally some to install or remove, and they spring back to shape when in the groove, or back out in your hand or on the garage floor somewhere.

Are you perhaps thinking of Spiralocks which are several coils of flat wire with no distance between the coils, but when together are wide enough to fill the groove in the piston pin bore? Which you install as you describe?

Those aren't what Trond has, nor what those of us who have commented had with our JEs. Maybe JEs can be had with Spiralocks nowadays, or were at some time? Special order?

The JEs are a bad design. Not because they don't do a good job retaining the pin, but because nothing that difficult to install is a good design, and it is not the only way to do things. Installing wrist pins on the water cooled motors is pretty tricky, but that is dictated by the general design of those motors. This isn't.

Maybe I'm confused with a different manufacturer. Here is a tool I have that works great for the circlips. https://www.klsupply.com/harley-tools/h-d-wrist-pin-clip-tool-35-5003.asp

FJ - Googling around, I find this tool is for Harleys, specifically 84-98 EVOs. Another source says also for Shovelheads, and Sportsters. I don't know motorcycles for beans, but looking around for parts with pictures, it sure looks like those Harleys use Spiro-Locks.

Nifty tool, but I can't see how it compresses a wire lock.

Alas

Here's some pictures. It also works great pulling the clip out.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589604361.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589604361.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589604361.jpg

Thanks for pictures - this is how I thought it might work. The first one kind of says it all.

One would have to try this on a J&E to know it would work there. They have one or two small semi-circle cutouts instead of those nice slots. Useful for prying the clips out, not so much for installing. I'm unsure if the cutouts are big enough to allow the tool to disengage, though. They are drillings, not castings, and don't extend outside of the boss.

If large enough, this should work.

I wonder if there are wrist pins whose ID would be too small - or maybe too big?

I think I now understand why the tool has that groove all the way around - easier to turn the whole piece than to have a groove just by the gripper.

Would be great if it works on the J&Es - ~$250 new, worth every penny for those of us who have had a learning curve with the Stomski.

If you shop around, you can find a better deal. I believe I paid right around $100 for my tool.

A couple of years ago, I built a couple of LS v8 engines for my sons racing habit. We used JE pistons. Because of my experience with JE pistons in Porsches, I ordered an extra set of circlips with each set of Pistons. Glad I did. It just seems like those clips aren't made of very high quality steel for their application. In each engine, I had a couple of clips that, once installed, didn't seem to be properly seated all the way around in the groove. So, they had to be replaced. They just can't take much deformation and spring back. On the next engine we did, we switched piston manufacturers. They used siprolocks. What a joy!

Hey Trond, you can make a budget Stomski circlip injector for less than $3. Take an old piston pin to the hardware store and find a bronze bushing that fits. With a little judisciuos grinding like in the picture it will work perfectly. You need to watch the Stomski video so you know how to load the clips. You will be amazed at how you can put in a clip in 20 seconds. Not sure who on Pelican came up with this, but it is a lifesaver for the JE clips

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589940110.jpg

Found today it IS possible to insert 22 mm JE c-clips with Stomski tool without distorting the clips. I measured before and after about 10 times and found if they are just barely in the tool, just enough to not pop out, and also it appears that risk of bending is less by using the thumb to insert clips into tool, then most of the clips survive without loosing shape. Using the thumb is a bit painfull but using a tool it appears gives a sharper localized bend point which is not good. Measurement before was 26mm on new clips and only about 2 out of 10 lost shape somewhat and measured 25 mm after taking out of the tool. Which I would think is insignificant. I also measured 3 clips I took out of pistons and 2 of those still measured 26 mm while the 3rd one was 25 mm so slightly deformed

Certainly J&E has engineers on staff who understand metallurgy? Why can't they come up with clips which act like springs and don't deform when compressed?

i thought my end results with JE clips and Stomski tool were good. repeatable and if you use a few extra to practice with you should get a feel for it. At the end of my practice run I was feeling very comfortable with the installation. I don't see any other way to install these clips. There was a you tube from JE where a magician installed them manually and it looked easy. I can't imagine how long he practiced for that but 10 spare ones will not bring most people there. Meanwhile use the Stomski tool. unless you have fingers of steel

Anyone have a source for new JE clips? I should probably just contact JE?

summitt have clips. If you have an SC it should be 866-063-MW

Hi everyone,

Thought I’d share a couple of notes from my experience installing the JE Circlips a couple of months ago.

I too, struggled with the Stomski tool for the first couple of tries for second circlip. When I used the tool to install the first clip for initial engine assembly for piston valve clearance, things are easy peasy. Piston on the bench, and you have no clearance issues between pin chamfer and piston bore.

When I was to the point of installing second clip With engine assembled, I was frustrated with the amount of clearance between the wrist pin and the piston. I seems like the gap you travel thru on your way to the groove is only a tiny bit larger Than the circlip itself. I actually was thinking my wrist pins were too long. As it turned out, everything was to spec. They just don’t want that wrist pin moving axially after install much.

When I couldn’t get the first clip to sit correctly, I did remove it from the bore in the piston, and the diameter was definitely affected by the Stomski tool. I called Steve and asked him about it. He said he hadn’t ever heard that feedback. He is such a nice guy to talk to, and incredibly helpful. And of course his tools are spectacular. I wish I had thought of the thumb trick instead of using a notched screwdriver. At the time I was not hugely concerned. I think my deformation was minor, and I compared the starting gap of a slightly deformed circlip, vs the gap after the circlip is in the groove. They are substantially different. I don’t see any scenario where the small amount of deformation will allow the clip to come out of the assembly. There is still a tremendous amount of spring force acting radially toward the groove.

I got the sense that the JE clips were so stiff, they were deforming the barrel in the Stomski tool a bit.

I called JE to ask a technician about the proper process to install the circlips. I figured surely they must have a documented procedure somewhere. The guy I talked to told me that everyone installs them with their fingers. We then got in to a long conversation where we were not communicating effectively. Turns out his experience was with a smaller wire diameter circlip, not the ones with my pistons. End of the day, they don’t have a published procedure for installation of the thicker clips. We ended with, “whatever you have to do to get it installed”.

My procedure ended up being, get the circlip successfully in the piston pin bore with the Stomski tool, then use a blunt tip small punch to push the clip thru the small gap, and into the groove.

With magnifying glass and good cell phone camera, I convinced myself that I had successfully installed one circlip, and it was nicely in the groove all the way around. When I got to the second clip, I could see that the gap was slightly smaller than my “reference clip”, and started to look for a way to measure the gap. I found that the tip of a standard large craftsman blade screwdriver would just barely fit in the gap of my reference clip. Couldn’t move the blade at all from what I could tell, but it was definitely in the gap. I went to the clip I wasn’t sure about, and it wasn’t even close. I clearly wasn’t in the groove all of the way around yet. Kept working with a small blunt punch and other small screwdriver to get the circlip to seat. No nice audible “click”, but my go / no go of the screwdriver blade passed.

I inspected every circlip with magnifying glass, and my “gauge”, due to reading of horror stories on the forum.

I have some cell phone pics, but nothing hugely helpful. Wish I would have documented which screwdriver I was using as a gauge. I think it would be Great for JE to develop something similar. A good way to measure the gap to know circlip is in the groove. I don’t know the tolerances on the initial wire length prior to forming, but I would imagine it’s reasonably good. Would love to see the machine that makes them.

All of this is just my personal opinions and experiences. I am a first time engine builder, and don’t suggest people take anything I say as gospel. The forum is great.

Mark

It is good practice to give the installed clips a tap or two from a small punch or screwdriver tip to make sure they are seated.

I have heard these circlips are really difficult to remove once installed, especially without damaging the piston bore. Is there any special technique that works here?

Bill

I've had to do it. It's not fun, but I have a tool that is sort of like a dental pick but flat on the end. That's what I used to get the clips started. And once you get them started, you can just twist them out. It's easier if you don't plan on reusing them.

Can you post a pic of that tool. I may wind up needing to remove my pistons due to some issue with the cylinder surface roughness :-(

Seems impossible at first, but gets easier after the first one or two comes out. I just did 6 JE clip removals on a case split. SmileWavy


photo vadered from the internet

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1590694952.jpg