Setting cam timing with engine in car?
 

Hi guys.

I just finishing an efi install after many years but had a leak at the chain housing to cam tower. Changed gasket and ring with engine in situ which was a pita job and thought i`d left cam timing untouched. So now it won`t run properly and goes lean etc then dies.

So might have to open her up once more to time cam. Is this hard to do with engine in car?
Positive is that i stopped the leak:D

Thanks to any tips SmileWavy

You have to remove all the muffler and metal off the rear of the motor including the motor mount
Disconnect electrical, fuel, oil and venting to lower the motor.
At this point, take the half shafts off and pull the motor, put it on the table, you’ll be much happier
Bruce

oof. I trust your judgement sir so i`ll do that. thx for chiming in.SmileWavy

so much work and it`s coming out, again.:rolleyes:

Turbo, lots more to come off...
Bruce

Check the cam timing first before you go to the effort of removing the engine

How do i do that? Guessing removing the valve cover and mount the dial then turn the engine like i would to see like i would anyway?

Cam timing inspection........
 

If you could check your cam timing in situ, what’s the point of removing the engine? For cam timing work, I rather drop the motor and do the cam timing with motor installed in an engine stand.

Tony

Checking the cam timing isn't any harder, really, with the engine in the car than with it on your engine stand. Of course you should do that before you do anything else. What is the overlap at the proper TDC for the cam you worked on?

I once did what you did - pulled the chain housing cover, removed the cam chain sprocket, found I had failed to tighten the three 10mm head bolts (hence big leak), tightened them, put everything back together as they were, and before putting the cover back on checked the timing. !it hadn't moved! I was astounded and elated. All in the closed trailer in a Walmart parking lot at Las Vegas before a race.
You had to go a little deeper, but I think nothing which would have moved the cam necessarily if the pin went back into the same holes?

Mind you, this was a race car, with a whole lot less to remove, and the bodywork cross piece behind the engine is removable as well, and not a turbo.

If you could do what you did with the engine in the car, you ought to be able to retime one cam if needed. No engine builder would want to do it that way, of course. You are the one to balance the pain of the one with the effort to remove the engine, put it on a stand, then remove more stuff, and reverse the process.

Hindsight - too bad you didn't check the cam timing as soon as you were done with the hard part, and before you started to put the cover and other stuff back on.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc doesn't always work, either. You won't know until you check the timing of that cam if it is out of whack enough to produce bad running (luckily it seems not so far out of whack as to lead to valves hitting pistons). You just installed EFI, and there are no end of things which can cause problems there.

For instance, the rebuilt injectors I bought didn't work (shop forgot a final lubrication step). In addition, the throttle position sensor, which should give a rising voltage signal as the throttle is opened, in fact gave a lower signal to begin with, and only at some point did what it was supposed to do! So if I could get the engine over maybe 1,500 or 2,000 RPM it would run OK. Just examples to suggest something else might be the cause.

Check.



But it might be off.

It’s no harder to check cam timing than adjusting valves. Just have to remove the intake cover and attach the dial indicator to the intake valve.

Yeah i also was thinking that. If i can change the chain box gasket and o-ring in situ i should`ve just done that while i was at it. Just wondered if anyone ever did this.

And ofcourse taking out the engine and put it on a stand makes it easier to time the cams but so is changing the plugs when the car is on a stand but i`m not taking out the engine again just to do one thing unless i have to. Off with all the wiring again, axles, oil mess and all the trouble jacking it up to get clearance etc etc. If i had a garage with fancy tools then maby :D

I`ll try in position first if i find the cam out of position. Thx for the input guys SmileWavy

My work space :(

https://i.imgur.com/xbu8KLs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/a1LEVHi.jpg

There are days when I think fondly of my air cooled VW beetles. I could pull the engine with a couple of wrenches and the car's jack in my trailer home driveway: Disconnect all but the bolts to the tranny. Remove rear wheels, set car down on a bit of wood under the engine. Undo the 4 bolts and slide the engine back a bit. Jack the car back up and pull the engine out. 911s are more work in a lot of ways.

Several of us are waiting to see what that cam's timing measures.

Sorry to hear you’re contemplating having to go back in. Having just rebuilt and reinstalled mine last week, that would be a very tall order, mentally even more than physically. But as Walt suggested, you changed a ton of stuff. Perhaps the issue isn’t cam timing related. I’d pull the valve cover and verify cam timing on #1 or #4 whichever is easier and get some facts on the table. Good luck pal!

He only worked on one side/cam, so that's the timing he needs to check. Checking the other cam also might make sense, since it is really easy. But probably won't help the diagnosis.

Thx guys for encouraging me SmileWavy

2 of my freshly rebuilt calipers was also leaking badly so i had to tackle that also today but i was able to check timing and also discover a small oil leak through the intake valve cover gasket. I actually remember forgetting to put loctight on the valve cover itself, only on the head side. I also remember thinking this would be ok. NO!! So a redo:rolleyes:

Hindsight WF is always annoying but i agree, i made so many mistakes with this build because of shortcuts. Lots more work because of it but i have held the costs down. Wish i could just ship it to TK.:cool:

Anywho,

Exhaust off
https://i.imgur.com/vBSQ02l.jpg

Dial on but i adjusted it a bit so it was straight.
https://i.imgur.com/0KcSgMn.jpg

Timing around 0,95 if i`m not mistaken

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And around 0,98
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Before chain box gasket/o-ring change. High idle but running great. I WAS so happy :D
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So is that far off enough to mess up cam trigger sync etc? Also, off with the turbo lower the engine just a little and i`ll time that fooker if needed in situ :D

I adjusted cam timing with the engine in the car. Was no more difficult then with it on the engine stand. Was a 73 E so less stuff in the way than a more modern engine.

So the spare gasket i had laying around turned out to be wishful thinking. Had to do a parts run and finally my local Porsche Center had what i needed.SmileWavy
Love that Locktight 574 but it`s a mess too clean up when you use as much as i did. But it was perfectly leak free!
https://i.imgur.com/u2WfXzX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/n24RFrc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jjcVvlI.jpg

So set it to about 72. On the video i took it just over TDC.

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I will ofcourse agree that this would be easier to do outside on a stand but it`s no problem at all doing it in car. Only hassle is the sheet metal bolts. So tight and frustrating. 8

Conclusion is that this is something you do when the car doing valves, gasket changes etc but if you just need to time a cam, not a biggie. If i can di it.......SmileWavy
Continues tomorrow with doing megasquirt again. Crossing fingers this was the issue i had!! Thanks guys!:D

Good job getting in there and getting it done.
Good idea with the crank bolt access hole- they should have come like that.
https://i.imgur.com/jjcVvlI.jpg

Thx and congrats on your impressive build! SmileWavy

They absolutely should`ve yes. I must admit if this was a low mileage original collectors car i wouldn`t cut in it. It is not so out comes the angle grinder :D

Also if the $ keeps dropping in value compared to norwegian viking coin i`m drooling on the TKs GT30 or 35 turbos to replace my 7006 laggy beast.

Best thing about having a car you can work on is upgrading.:D Wonder how it is to drive ;)

Access makes it easier to perform some operations. I hope I don't have to go here for awhile.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1595812802.jpg

S

That looks a lot better than my hacksaw version. I also hope you don`t have to get close to that for a while. Same hear :)

Out of sight, out of mind.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1595872773.jpg

Don't remember if this "brilliant idea" interfered with the engine crossbar. It didn't, but the muffler bracket took precedence. Nevertheless, the hole is still there.

S

Come on man, now you`re just showing off :D Love it thoughSmileWavy

Repurposed the superfluous sheet metal cover as a front door peep hole cover. :)

You can check cam timing on both banks in the car in around an hour. If they need adjustment you can do it easily. Remove muffler, remove rear tin. Then you are good to go as if engine was on the stand, except access isn't quite as optimal. Depending on the year of the car you may have heat tubes to move as well. It can be as difficult as you want it to be....

We just did this exact thing on a 69 in the shop. I had one bank timed before we could have had the engine out. Second bank timed before we would have started timing the first bank if we pulled the engine and got it on a stand and started the process.

Is it easier on the stand?? 100% no question. Far easier. Is it faster once the engine is on the stand? 100% no question. But, in the car you don't have to drain the oil, refill the oil, remove engine and gearbox. My preference is always to do it on the stand. But sometimes it makes more sense to do it in the car. But, it is also a rare occurrence where the only service regarding cam timing is that the cams need to be re timed. Hence why more often than not, the engine gets pulled.

Make sense?

I was just wondering this when putting my motor back together why Porsche didn't allow a access hole to turn crank over with a socket wrench. I was think of taking Bracket to machine shop to have a nice clean hole drilled threw it.

Right? Although the sheet metal is also in need of a trim. Seems like such a small thing to do. If you have a pcar worth it, do the "911pcars" route. Got one like mine, grinder out:) I'll do what 911pcars did next time the motor is out for a service. Just for looks :)