I'll bite, mine is 3.2ss with Carillo pistons and the Henry mod of knocking down the sharp edge at the top of the valve cuts for 5 hp? The M1 Milisa cam is a modern CIS grind of the 1966 Solex cam with secret ramps and Tobasco added.. I have done 2 steps of porting and working on the exhaust side made the biggest difference. The rear main seal has been a headache, but on teardowns I get to check everything and polish little bits here and there. Induction is the ICARP FPR set up and what ever your set is going to be get an AFR gauge whether it is carbs or stand alone EFI. 9.8:1 is working fine on 91 octane. Pulling off all the CIS crap helps a lot, I have a FD and throttle body stripped, starts a runs great with good MPG. Digging through this site you can read all my mistakes and ask me anything because I got thick skin

More Progress
 

One more photo of today's progress. To answer ninesixfour's question, William Knight wanted to cram as much lift and duration as he could into a cam that would work with CIS, and doing so meant he would more closely approach the limits of this configuration than perhaps other cam designs do. So far as my particular application, I wouldn't be surprised if we could have gotten away with 0.25mm cylinder base shims and still made it work. But we weren't pushing our luck any further- we are happy with our result.

NOTE: I am keeping full heating system with blower and improved Griffiths air conditioning, as can be inferred from this photo.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1697500260.jpg

Let me add to 911MANN's answer: I eliminated the .25mm base gaskets on my build in order to get the piston to cylinder head clearance down to close to .030"/.75mm. The reason for this is to improve the squish of the combustion chamber and get better charge mixing and concentration in the open part of the chamber (around the spark plug), which improves combustion. Whether that makes a real-world improvement in a 911 engine, I don't know for sure, and it would require a lot more testing than I'm willing to do to find out. But it's good practice. Using the M1 cam, I also ended up with a valve to piston clearance at overlap of about 1.25mm, which is a little tighter than I would like (prefer 1.5+mm), but I have not experienced any signs of valve to piston contact. So it worked for me.

^^^Well it sure works on a Mustang engine, and I would run them up to 14:1 on pump gas with no preignition. But 13.5 :1 seemed to be the sweet spot.

Getting Closer...
 

OK, fellas, we are getting closer now. I had the car towed to Karl at German Car Service this morning for final chassis preparations and engine installation. Will publish updates as necessary. Three more weeks will be one full year since the engine was dropped. Man, things move slowly, but time surely does fly! Stay tuned.

Looking Forward………
 

Ren,

Looking forward to see your car on the road again. Please share your experience with us including the ups and down you encountered along the way. Thanks.

Tony

CIS Challenges at Intial Start-Up
 

This update explains why it's taking so long to get my baby on the road. I also hope it might help others who find similar issues with their CIS. Remember, my car is a 1983 ROW version and uses WUR #089, as that has become the center of controversy.

Well, my mechanic, Karl made the initial start-up last week. He said he had a heck of a time getting it cold-started, as it was acting super-rich until he gave it some throttle. That introduced more air and allowed warm-up to occur. After that, the initial 20 minute cam/rocker run-in was fine. He did comment how much louder the Dansk 2/1 muffler with 84mm outlet sounds- but he said "it's good loud". He drained the initial fill of Driven BR 15W50 and immediately refilled with same in preparation for the initial driving run-in.

Normally, when Karl receives a freshly-rebuilt WUR and FD he has no need to check pressures, but this cold start was way out of whack. After connecting his CIS pressure testing kit, he found the following readings:
-Ambient Temperature: 75*F/24*C
-Cold Control Pressure (CCP): 1.0Bar with No Vacuum Applied
-Warm Control Pressure (WCP): 3.0Bar with No Vacuum Applied
-System Pressure (SP): 4.0Bar

After reviewing the Bosch specification sheet for this WUR #089, Karl concluded the WCP seems fine, and the car runs well when warm. But the CCP should be around 2Bar, and that's the cause for the overly-rich cold start. Finally, the SP seems a bit low at only 4.0Bar.

CIS Flowtech in Alabama had rebuilt the WUR and FD, and this past Monday I called them to explain my situation. They were very helpful explaining the various possible trouble-shooting scenarios. My mechanic had already worked through all of them, and Flowtech said they would happily and quickly assess my WUR and turn it around as soon as possible after determining if anything was amiss. They were puzzled by the low SP, and they sent shims for the FD push valve, which controls that SP. When pulling the plunger to add shims, Karl noticed a small split in the tiny O-Ring at the end of the plunger. Karl replaced the O-Ring and instantly got the 5.3Bar of SP that Flowtech had recommended. Whew, that solution was easy.

But resolving the CCP was not to be easy. The difficulty revolves around the exact sequence of operation and function of my WUR #089 as it relates to my 1983 ROW engine type 930/10. The official Bosch specification sheet shows at the top "Control Pressure Cold" and lists a testing vacuum of 450-550mbar. Bosch's chart shows about 2Bar at 75*F. That matched Flowtech's setting with vacuum applied, which also equates to 1Bar with no vacuum. Now, pay close attention here.......

Karl has been working on 911s for 40 years, and he knows all of them very well, including the differences between them including the variations of CIS for the individual models. My car needs NO VACUUM ON COLD START. It has a valve that stops vacuum until a thermal time-delay allows the valve to open after about 35 seconds, to then allow vacuum for warm-up. By that time the initial cold start has occurred, and the car can continue warming-up with some vacuum.

We knew the current CCP did not work, and my special request to Flowtech ultimately became "Please set my CCP at 2Bar with NO vacuum, at my risk". In the end, Flowtech was absolutely convinced the initial cold start required the specified vacuum, and they very nicely explained we simply needed to "find" the vacuum by properly connecting the vacuum hoses to the ignition distributor, which provides the vacuum to the system. They are now returning my WUR with the CCP set just as it was during the rebuild.

Well, we know that still won't work, and I'm feeling very much caught in the middle, but without a satisfactory result! I had contacted Tony (our Pelican expert) who goes by Boyt911SC on our forums in hopes he might offer some direction or identify some detail we were missing. Tony understands exactly what my mechanic is saying and completely agrees. He has offered to help immediately with our difficulties. This is a nuance of my particular ROW Engine Type 930/10 and its sequence of CIS Cold Start operation. But because Bosch makes no mention of it in their spec sheet, it gets ignored.

I have both comfort and confidence that Tony will help us on our path to resolution. I will keep the updates coming when significant. Thank you, Tony!

Ren, thanks for that update and detailed discussion. I also have a 1980 SC RoW engine with the 089 WUR. As I’ve noted in several other threads, it does act strange compared to what I expect it to do with respect to AFRs at various throttle openings. I have opened it up and cleaned it and made one adjustment so far. I also have a 033 WUR that I have swapped back and forth. It seems to act the same way on my engine. I’ve been considering pulling it out and going to a manual FPR as icarp and Old H2S have done, but haven’t gotten “roundtuit” yet. I seem to have developed some intake leaks recently and I first need to do a smoke test to find them.

Back to your issue. Don’t be afraid to open up your WUR and adjust it. With the info already posted on this Forum and Karl’s advice, you can do it. WURs are not complicated, just carefully calibrated. You can change the CCP yourself.

CIS on Engine Type 930/10
 

Thanks, Pete. I hope to tune-in to a relatively ideal compromise for my engine and this CIS version. I expect it will take some testing, fiddling and adjusting, but if it yields a good result, it will be worth it. I use the word 'compromise', as these K-Jetronic systems are all balancing pressures, differential pressures, fuel flow, idle speed, cruising, WOT, etc. The air intake volume has a limit also. I 'think' my engine setup like this will likely reveal my ROW intake runner/manifold part of the equation is the limiting factor to maximum HP. But I also doubt I'm knowledgeable enough to recognize that if/when it happens.

Hopefully, some of the more experienced/knowledgeable Pelicanites will shed some light as things progress and I share data. My larger SSI system was purchased for my particular model of car (not 3.2L Carrera), and it was fabricated without bungs for Oxygen Sensors, etc. Now I'm expecting we might need to use exhaust data to help us dial in our best overall performance for the differing conditions. I am hoping that I don't regret failing to add them between the merge collectors and the muffler inlet. Any thoughts on any of this are appreciated. Thanks.

FYI. The intake runners for the RoW engines are larger diameter than the 1980-1983 US spec models, to match the larger intake ports in the ROW heads. Don’t throw them away. I suspect that the intakes runners are not the greatest restriction to intake flow.

Next, I installed one bung in my SSI’s. Extremely useful info. I wish I had bought a 2-channel meter so that I could see which bank is going lean due to an air leak(s).

I guess you could bypass the thermovalve as a test. Then you are getting the vacuum from the word go.

Either way, you should be able to alter your CCP with a bit of fiddling to get your cold starts better.

Looking forward to the driving report!

Following


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When the thermo switch is working correctly; you will see the CCP jump up when it switches on. About 30 seconds after engine start.

Pete is exactly right, and that is the part that is causing controversy. The Bosch specification sheet fails to mention that, and the WUR is calibrated as if vacuum is present from the start, causing terribly rich mixture until thermal switch shuts off. While I am frustrated as Hell, I cannot be upset with CIS Flowtech, as they are doing their best to follow Bosch standards, thinking they are preventing me from introducing other issues in the system. Just be aware!

Also- I expect this displacement increase, along with the Melissa M1 cams, head work and improved exhaust to max out the CIS. I am aware of my larger CIS intake system, and I am thinking this will be the limiting factor. But something always has to be the limiting factor. I was not interested in modifying the throttle plate or anything else in the intake. I read a Pelican thread from 2013 that Tuthill Porsche tried their best to max out the ROW 3.2L on CIS, but it was using 964 cams. They achieved 238BHP, and that was the limit. Evidently, they did enlarged the throttle body in order to achieve this. In the end, they determined the CIS intake runners were "definitely the limiting factor". It's only one account, but I expect it's about right. Tuthill knows what they are doing. I am using hotter cams but not modifying the throttle body.

Mikedsilva- Yes, that was our last resort until Tony offered to help me. He is sending out a loaner WUR tomorrow, and we shall see how that interfaces. Stay tuned, and thanks for the participation.

Any Update?
 

Ren,

Did you receive the WUR-089 I sent to you? Another thing you have to test and confirm is your TTV (thermotime valve). Make sure it is closed when COLD and opens up after 20~30 sec. the FP started running. Keep us posted. Thanks.

Tony

Hi, Tony:

Yes sir, I received your loaner WUR right on schedule late last week. Karl installed it Saturday morning, and the engine fired up immediately! Thanks for helping me in our time of need.

Karl will finish getting the car ready for driving break-in and should put her on the road this week. I will post updates as soon as I have something meaningful. Thanks for checking in!

First Drive & Impressions
 

Wow, my first drive was great! I am really impressed with this combination!

I took her out for a 2-hour drive of about 100 miles in a nearby rural county to become acquainted with the new engine. Karl told me it was OK to give it some beans, like half or 2/3 throttle, just keep revs limited to 4000rpm max.

Cold Start needs some adjustment, but we will sort that out. For the moment, it starts a lot like a carbureted car for the first 2-3 minutes.

Warm-Up is fine, just a bit rough for another 5 minutes. It's fine to drive during warm-up, just going easy on the throttle.

Idle is fine after about 5 minutes, but not factory-smooth. I notice the slightest stumble as the engine idles with these larger cams and different lobe overlaps, but it's nothing objectionable. This is to be expected, and Karl has raised the idle to about 1050rpm to compensate.

Drivability below 2000rpm is noticeably different from my original stock ROW engine. Again, it's fine, nothing objectionable, but I can tell this engine is happier above 2000rpm than below it, especially in higher gears. In certain traffic conditions, the original engine would allow me to gently lug it at lower revs and ease on the throttle without objecting, but this new engine is less tolerant of that. It just wants to be somewhere above 2000rpm. So, I am modifying my in-traffic driving style a bit.

Engine characteristics demonstrate decidedly more grunt than the original 3.0L did, right from idle and everywhere above. And it accelerates noticeably better.. Yep, she's revvy, and she's torquier, too. I cannot say how much is attributable to the larger displacement, and how much to the cams, but I like everything about the performance gains. She's really happy above 3000rpm. I spent a good bit of time between 3000 and 4000rpm, and the power is very linear, just as William Knight had indicated. It feels like I will have plenty more of that juicy power above 4000rpm, but that will have to wait until after full break-in is completed.

The larger 41mm SSI heat exchangers and Dansk 2/1 Sport Muffler with the 84mm outlet are noticeably louder than my previous original SSIs and smaller 2/1 muffler. Start-up, idle and everywhere above is throatier and louder and more raw sounding. I will try to post a video of the exhaust sound at some point in future for those interested. Even quietly creeping around my neighborhood, I am sure to be heard long before I arrive. But I expect this combination will be quite loud above 4000rpm.

Engine temperature seems quite good with the 18-tube brass radiator style oil cooler under the right front fender. My oil temperature reached about 185*F on my new gauge. Ambient temperature was 74*F, and I'm quite satisfied with this reading. We shall see how she does in the summer heat of Central Florida.

I will post more information and details as I become better acquainted with this new engine, but I can only say this was a huge success, surpassing my expectations. I expect February is the earliest I will have full break-in complete for the full-beans report. Let me know of any questions, and I will try to reply. Thanks for following.




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1701697927.jpg

That sounds like good progress. What are the cold start issues you're having? It sounded like you suspected too rich a mixture before you switched the WUR. Is that still the case? Do you happen to know the cold control pressure with the new WUR? I have a similar setup to you (M1 cams in a Euro engine, although 3.0 not 3.2) and found that the cold start was a bit rough initially, but a slight increase of idle speed and CCP to the maximum in the spec. book helped.

John

Ren, great to hear you got it working well. Do you think Tony's WUR made the difference, or other stuff?

If you haven't taken in above 4000 yet, brace yourself when you do. The M1 cam works well below 4000, but really comes alive at 4000 RPM and pulls hard beyond 6000.

Go run it and report back. And yeah, you'll have a silly grin every time you do it.

John & Pete: Thanks for responding. You guys may be able to help us put our finger on improvements without too much trial & error.

Cold Start: I never saw it first-hand starting with my WUR as it came from CIS Flowtech, but Karl said it acted too rich. And just as important, he felt it needed more intake air than the auxiliary air regulator was allowing. Now, with Tony's WUR (adjusted leaner), it is still exhibiting those same characteristics. Here are our clues: First crank takes about 6-8 seconds to fire. Then it wants to die. Cranking again, and opening the throttle (more than just a little) allows it to fire again. I need to keep my foot on the throttle (again, more than just a little), and the revs come up. I can settle at around 1200-1400rpm with my foot on the throttle for about 2 minutes before the warmup cycle kicks in and it is moderately OK warming up from there. That very long crank before firing seems like a clue. If the cold start injector is spritzing fuel that whole time, this engine is taking a lot of fuel to start (is that how the cold start injector works?) Karl is currently looking for a 1978/79 auxiliary air regulator, which he believes has a larger air hole in the plate, to allow more intake air during warmup. This we want to try, in addition to playing with the Cold Control Pressure.

Warm-Up Regulator: Any clues you might offer relating to your systems may help me here. I am kicking myself for not welding in a bung on my new SSIs, as that would help eliminate some guesswork. Please let me know how your engines work in the different cycles with the pressures you have after seeing mine below. Here are mine currently:

CCP- 2.0Bar at 68*F Without Vacuum is Tony's current setting, just as we had requested. We have not adjusted Tony's WUR for cold start yet. According to the Bosch spec chart, we are at the maximum now, which is 2.0Bar at 20*C. John, could you offer your opinion here? The engine will not hold the cold start without me opening the throttle. When you say 'maximum', that is leanest. Or did you mean richest, which is the minimum: 1.6Bar at 20*C?

Next is the WCP. Tony has it set right in the middle of the spec at 3.6Bar With Vacuum and 2.9Bar Without Vacuum. Let's discuss these one at a time. Also, I don't want us to forget my System Pressure is just beyond the maximum at 5.3Bar. CIS Flowtech told me their feedback for sporty engines shows they like this SP maxed out at 5.3Bar. With these cams and displacement increase, I would think that's got to be correct.

WCP With Vacuum- Bosch specifies 3.4-3.8Bar. We are set in the middle at 3.6Bar. If I understand this correctly, this condition occurs when I am cruising down the road at consistent speed with minimal throttle change. The engine seems to run fine here. Ian Carpenter (3.0L, small ports) said his fuel mileage with M1 Cams is quite good while cruising, and this leads me to believe I am probably Ok at this pressure, even with my added displacement. But I don't know. Any thoughts?

WCP Without Vacuum- This is what Bosch calls "Maximum Enrichment." In other words, Full Throttle. Bosch specifies between 2.7-3.1Bar. Tony has me set right in the middle at 2.9Bar. I have not given it Full Throttle yet, nor have I run over 4000rpm. But I understood from Ian Carpenter these M1 cams drink the fuel at full throttle AND Over 4000rpm. When Tony adjusts my WUR, I was thinking of having him set it for 2.7Bar to achieve maximum fuel for my engine combination. Any thoughts here? Without an AFR monitor and dyno tuning, I know I am poking around in less-than-ideal circumstances. But any opinions would help. Thanks again.
Ren