Cost for Rebuilding
 

I’m ready for a rebuild. My 89 911 engine needs a refresh. Looking at rough estimates for doing a 3.4-3.6 from my current 3.2.

All in for a complete rebuild?

Read the parallel thread about “Separating Nikasil Piston
And Cylinder.”

How many miles on it? Why do you think it needs a refresh? Your labor, or you pay a Porsche engine shop to rebuild it? The price depends directly on how much you replace.

I want a new engine and it would be a shop to do the work.

How about $20-30K . . .

Some have done the 3.4L twin plug upgrade . . . I wouldn't try to do a 3.6L from a 3.2L case . . .

Best of luck on your project!
Regards,
Roy T

These rebuilds add up extremely fast. There’s a lot of work that goes into making one of these right and look nice. Its not just take it apart replace parts and put it back together. It can be but generally speaking that’s not the best way to go. There’s a ton of labor in cleaning and machining. These engines are like an onion..layer upon layer. Each layer can have its unexpected costs.

To do a full rebuild really nice 20-30k is a little low but in the ballpark

This is your chance to “build” your dream engine. Call and talk to William Knight (search on this site) and give him what you want your engine to do. He will design and engine just for you!
He will talk with you for as many hours needed to get you your custom engine.
I purchased all the parts from him ( trustworthy) and he gave me an engine builder close to me.
The process is long, trying to get all the right pieces together…some custom made, but it is well worth it.

I was thinking closer to 40-50k.

Engines this "old" need restoration more than rebuilding.

Yep

I’m not even sure I could get into a rebuild without budgeting 70k.

So tell…..

Not all engines are the same. Nor does every owner want the same result. Some don't see things wrong that other do.

What we have seen in the past is pretty typical. Apart for the normal replacement or reconditioning of the internal parts, much if not all of the exterior parts are worn out and need replacing or repair. Fiberglass shroud, wiring, throttle linkage, sheet metal, exhaust, the list goes on.

Call it what you want, it all comes down to what result you want. I tell customers, I can make money disappear quicker than David Copperfield in Vegas can.

...and of course, Neil's "X factor." Were you thinking Timex, or Rolex?

Perfectly explained!

My ask is to rebuild what is needed to bring back life to a 3.2L that has either 118k or 218k
Miles on it. I’ve had it for 14 years w a broken odometer (the front number spins but has stopped at the 2 around 6 years ago).





QUOTE=Neil Harvey;11915636]Not all engines are the same. Nor does every owner want the same result. Some don't see things wrong that other do.

What we have seen in the past is pretty typical. Apart for the normal replacement or reconditioning of the internal parts, much if not all of the exterior parts are worn out and need replacing or repair. Fiberglass shroud, wiring, throttle linkage, sheet metal, exhaust, the list goes on.

Call it what you want, it all comes down to what result you want. I tell customers, I can make money disappear quicker than David Copperfield in Vegas can.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. My "X" factor is the "Rolex" factor and I make no apologies about this. I want to provide a high end product for those that want this level.

70K?? I'll be happy to rebuild your next engine for that price! ;)

A few folks thought 50-60k were right. Others went with 20-30k.

If you would allow me to offer some advice?

Set your engine budget first. There is a limit to what you can afford. Once you have this figured out, this sets the parameters of what you can either achieve or maybe not start until you can.

The first part of the "build" is the heaviest in the labor. Disassembly, cleaning, crack checking and measuring will take up the major part of the labor. Typically DIY's and most shops will send out the parts for machining. The DIY and shop only do the assembly after the parts are returned.

Knowing that these early engines need a lot of attention, this is how we approach projects like this.

We quote the owner/shop an amount to disassemble, clean, crack check, and measure all parts.

Then we supply a second written quote to cover the machine work, parts, misc parts, any outside vendor work and the assembly/dyno. This way we know exactly what needs to be done and some concessions can be made then, in order to meet the budget. Maybe those upgrades cannot be afforded, making the engine look nice is not included, etc. The owner knows exactly what it will cost before anything is started. Both the disassembly cost and the "build" cost.

There have been times when the owner could not afford what was required and the project was stopped until they could. You don't get buried in a project that has no end in sight.

Often an estimate is given without any sort of knowledge of what is going on inside the engine. The engine is disassembled and then the telephone starts ringing, telling what horrors have been found. Now you are committed with a deposit given and that estimate has now grown in amount way more than ever expected.

I would hate that too.

Maybe contact Flat6pak (Bruce Abbott) on this site. He has been rebuilding 911 engines for decades. He rebuilt my '87 3.2 and it runs great.

Haven’t had an engine rebuilt, but this is the attitude/approach I’d look for in a builder.

Thank you. How much life came back when you had your engine rebuilt? Would I expect to see improvements in acceleration and power?

28tbsfan: First, take Neil's advice and figure out a budget. Then recognize that you will probably go over it, because you will get the itch to improve performance or something like that.

You still haven't said what you want in an engine rebuild, or how many miles the current one has, or why you think it needs rebuilding. What does "tired" mean to you? Is it burning oil, belching smoke, and making banging noises? Have you run a compression or leak down test? What were the results?

If you have not run a leak down test, pay a couple hundred bucks and do so before you contemplate $30K+ in engine rebuilding. Unless you have more than 200Kmi on it, I'll bet that the leak down test reveals that the engine has good numbers and doesn't need rebuilding. Perhaps valve guides and valve job is all you need. If that.

All of those are important in figuring out what you want.

Is this the original engine, and if so, do you want to keep the original "numbers matching" case? If so, then you must rebuild your current engine. If not, then look into doing an exchange. I don't know if anyone does engines on an exchange basis anymore, and I haven't seen advertisements in a few years, so that may not be available, but if it is, that will minimize down time. You will be able to drive off into the sunset in a few days, instead of a few months.

Do you want to improve on what you have with larger pistons and cylinders? Make a 3.4? Or just keep it a 3.2? That will make a 4000-5000 dollar difference in price because that's what a new set of Mahle pistons and cylinders costs. If you stay at 3.2, and your original p/c's are within tolerances, then you can just scrub, re-ring and re-install at a fraction of the price for new (how many miles on your current engine?!). Do you want more power through higher RPM? That will require new cams and valve train components. If you just want it like original, you can inspect, recondition, and reuse most or all of those components. Etc., etc.

What are your answers to those questions?

The mileage is questionable as the odometer, only the first number would randomly spin. I’ve had the car for 12 years and by following the car fax, my best guess is it’s at 118k.

My goal for the engine would be to improve performance. I have a Steve Wong chip and a basic 3.2 original set up. I have not done a leak down test. I know many folks say it’s too soon to rebuild but I plan on keeping the vehicle and don’t want to wait until I’m 70 years old to enjoy a refresh, given the number of miles i put on it each year.

My goal would be to experience what a fresh, 3.2L or potentially upgrade to 3.4L in my 1989 911 would feel like. I don’t need a track car, but something with more acceleration and power.






QUOTE=PeteKz;11916799]28tbsfan: First, take Neil's advice and figure out a budget. Then recognize that you will probably go over it, because you will get the itch to improve performance or something like that.

You still haven't said what you want in an engine rebuild, or how many miles the current one has, or why you think it needs rebuilding. What does "tired" mean to you? Is it burning oil, belching smoke, and making banging noises? Have you run a compression or leak down test? What were the results?

If you have not run a leak down test, pay a couple hundred bucks and do so before you contemplate $30K+ in engine rebuilding. Unless you have more than 200Kmi on it, I'll bet that the leak down test reveals that the engine has good numbers and doesn't need rebuilding. Perhaps valve guides and valve job is all you need. If that.

All of those are important in figuring out what you want.

Is this the original engine, and if so, do you want to keep the original "numbers matching" case? If so, then you must rebuild your current engine. If not, then look into doing an exchange. I don't know if anyone does engines on an exchange basis anymore, and I haven't seen advertisements in a few years, so that may not be available, but if it is, that will minimize down time. You will be able to drive off into the sunset in a few days, instead of a few months.

Do you want to improve on what you have with larger pistons and cylinders? Make a 3.4? Or just keep it a 3.2? That will make a 4000-5000 dollar difference in price because that's what a new set of Mahle pistons and cylinders costs. If you stay at 3.2, and your original p/c's are within tolerances, then you can just scrub, re-ring and re-install at a fraction of the price for new (how many miles on your current engine?!). Do you want more power through higher RPM? That will require new cams and valve train components. If you just want it like original, you can inspect, recondition, and reuse most or all of those components. Etc., etc.

What are your answers to those questions?[/QUOTE]

With only 118Kmi on it, I would not even consider doing a rebuild unless you have a real problem. I seriously doubt that a rebuild to 3.2 will give you any more power. You may want to spend money on it, but after it's done, you may THINK that you got more power, but in reality, it's your expectations fooling you into justifying spending $30k. Increasing to 3.4 will only give you about 6-7% more torque. To get more than that, you need to change cams, compression, etc.--and the compression in the stock 3.2 is already pretty high and hard to increase without other tradeoffs. You might consider going to a twin plug setup, but that will add many thousands more$$$. At that point I'd be thinking of buying a good running 3.6 engine and transplanting it, then selling your 3.2 (unless you want to keep the original serial number). After that, you're into serious mods or turbocharging.

Do yourself a favor and get a leak down test done. Then put it on a dyno. At least that way you will have hard numbers that you can compare to after you spend boatloads of money.

If you feel the need to spend money, here's a much more fun and cheaper way to do so: Take your car to the track. Participate in the PCA Driver's Ed programs. Get another set of wheels and put race rubber on them. If you have already done that, then go to a driving school. Get professional race instruction. Go to a rally driving school, etc. Lately, those Safari builds have been tempting me...

28tbsfan - My engine runs like a new 3.2. I upgraded to 964 cams. a Steve Wong custom chip, large-tube SS Heat Exchangers and a new Dansk (stock) muffler. I am running the stock Motronic fuel injection. I enjoyed the whole process with Bruce who kept me well informed and discussed the changers I wanted to make and sent me lots of in-progress build pictures.

Thank u sir - if u don’t mind me asking. What did this cost you?

Engine build
 

Any electron / magnesium 911 case from 1968 to 1973 more than likely will need to be line bored. By now most of these have seen a rebuild and have had many cycles of heat up and cool down. That is a for sure starting point in cost. From 1R to 7R these cases can take and need some fine tuning especially in considering what your build architecture is going to entail. Seems the air cooled specialists on rebuilds start with a 60 hour labor count but we all know you will be in at over 100 hrs.

50k maybe

3.6 crank and oil pump
custom length rods
custom 98mm pistons
bore and plate your 95mm barrels to suit
custom cams, speak to WK or JD
1.75 headers
custom muffler cos off the shelf is restrictive
SW bored throttle and chip
larger injectors
expect to dyno and have the chip altered

Do you add in the ancillary cost of tranny rebuild, clutch/flywheel, alternator/fan restoration, shifter bushings, clutch cable, engine bay seals, fuel lines, on and on and on. There is no 1 number.
I would think every "rebuild" is a unique experience.

If your engine runs and works properly, save your $$ and when you are ready to go all in and restore your car do it all at once. Maybe you never get to doing anything, maybe you get tired of the car and sell it, maybe you just enjoy what you have and don't feel the need to just do things to do them.

JM2CW

Joe D

If you're in Chicago, I'd call Bob Farmer in Indy. He's never steered me wrong, going on 20 years now and won't charge you the insane prices listed above. $30k or less, and he's been working on Porsches since '75. Call him--he'll talk you through it. The last time he quoted me on an engine was well under $20k for engine and trans rebuild.

Awesome! Do u have his contact info?

PM sent

Farmer Automotive: Bob Farmer

1-800-213-6373

Farmers Automotive. Experts in Porsche performance and repair. Located in Greenfield, Indiana.

I'll be calling him next week, too. He's a great guy, no b.s, and does quality work.

Thank you. I appreciate the lead and yes, some of these prices seem absurd above.

I will reach out to him and see if this makes sense. It sounds like he did good work for you. Again, I’m just looking to get some power and acceleration back, while being able to enjoy the car in my late 40’s.





QUOTE=bbturbo;11919408]Farmer Automotive: Bob Farmer

1-800-213-6373

Farmers Automotive. Experts in Porsche performance and repair. Located in Greenfield, Indiana.

I'll be calling him next week, too. He's a great guy, no b.s, and does quality work.[/QUOTE]

28tbsfan, he's worked on all four of my 911s, and was the first Porsche turbo mechanic in the state of Indiana in '75ish. He knows his stuff and will get you where you want to be for a reasonable price. Best of luck with your 911!

[/quote]