Cut the oil pump driveshaft?

[RobFrost]

Hi, I'm enquiring whether cutting the oil pump drive shaft is the logical next step and whether anybody has success resolving a similar situation.

I've a 2.2E which will not turn. Pistons 3 and 6 are at bottom dead centre and therefore can't be removed. And the case can't be separated more than a centimetre or so before they're hard up against the webs beneath them.

It is my fairly certain belief that the oil pump is seized by magnesium fragments within, which is what's preventing the engine from turning. I need therefore, to disengage the oil pump from the crank.

I don't think I can separate the IMS from the crank because it needs to move at right angles to the gap in the case, which it does not have freedom to do. I broke both circlips off the oil pump drive shaft in order to try to slide it off its splines one end, but it won't move far enough.

Is the logical next step to cut the oil pump driveshaft? Or is there another way of getting the crank turning or disengaging it from the oil pump? Or is my proposed course of action a fairly standard and frequent next step?

[gled49]

Have u pulled the heads and cam housings off the engine. I doubt anything related to the intermediate shaft or oil pump is stopping the engine from turning over.

[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by gled49

Have u pulled the heads and cam housings off the engine. I doubt anything related to the intermediate shaft or oil pump is stopping the engine from turning over.

Yes it's all off and the case is split an inch. The crank rocks a couple of degrees while the ims doesn't turn in the slightest, it just gets levered up and down a bit. The oil pickup has flakes of magnesium in it and there's mag sludge in the oil pipes. The piston rings were smeared up the sides of the pistons, a couple of pistons are heat discoloured and two had chunks broken off.

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[dannobee]

Are you sure the timing chain(s) aren't wedged against the case? Near the IMS.

I've never had to cut the dumbbell to get the crank to turn.

[boyt911sc]

Rob,

Could you post a picture of the engine case that is partially separated? Top and bottom views would be great. Thanks.

Tony

[RobFrost]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Rob,



Could you post a picture of the engine case that is partially separated? Top and bottom views would be great. Thanks.



Tony

Here's what I have.

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[porschedude996]

It wouldn’t be a big deal to cut the oil pump shaft on the “Big Hole in the Bottom of the Case Engine”. Contaminating the area with chips or metallic dust isn’t a problem, looks like a complete overhaul. Cost of shaft is $65 (901.107 .121.00).

[stownsen914]

Chains are still in place? It’s hard to tell from the pics. Chains can bunch up, wedge in place, and stop the engine from turning over.

Edit - I see this was suggested already.

[porschedude996]

Do you recall if the engine was locked up before you started disassembly?

[boyt911sc]

The case half (side 1-2-3) should be able to slide and separate from the other half (side 4-5-6) if all the fasteners were removed. If the engine is seized due stuck oil pump, what is preventing the other half from separating? Why is the mating edge of the crankcase not even? Are the pistons (3 & 6) free to wiggle or in contact already with the case? Maybe it’s an optical illusion, but it looks like you are pulling the other crankcase half a little bit cocked(?). With all cylinders removed, you should be able to pull the case halves apart. Chain housings removed, so what is the mysterious obstruction?

Tony

[draw]

I was thinking the same thing as Tony. The pistons on 1 and 3 should fit through the case spigots. Have all the nuts been removed? I think I see two nuts still on the flywheel end. Also don’t forget the ones inside the oil cooler area.

[john walker's workshop]

Air saw and get it over with.

[Dpmulvan]

Pull the rings if your having issues getting pistons through spigots.

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Air saw and get it over with.

Actually now that I’ve thought about it John’s right cut it, there’s no other way.

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by draw

I was thinking the same thing as Tony. The pistons on 1 and 3 should fit through the case spigots. Have all the nuts been removed? I think I see two nuts still on the flywheel end. Also don’t forget the ones inside the oil cooler area.

Pistons cant fit through spigots because of the bearing webs.

[pocv0]

The 2 nuts on the flywheel end are still on, you need to remove those.

There are only a couple of reasons why the crankshaft won't rotate- 1) timing chains are bunched up and jams the crankshaft. 2) you have a broken/bent connecting rod. Been there done that, destroyed the oil pump as well.

[pmax]

Hacksaw.

It isn't hardened metal.

[Neil Harvey]

STOP!!!! Don't cut anything yet. That just been a hack!!!! In all my years and engines that were seized, never have I ever had to resort to that. Cannot believe anyone would suggest such a thing. Those that have should never be allowed within 100 yards of an engine.

Think about the whole situation not just that the engine will not turn. If the engine seized when driving it either would have "exploded" or it can be disassembled with some light force. If the pump seized, it would have exploded and you would have had a complete loss of OP. If none of those happened, I'm with the suggestion that the chains are locked together down inside. Often happens.

You say the crank can turn slightly but the counter shaft does not, that's odd too. This is where you need to lock the hacksaw away and sit down with a cold one and think. The backlash is typically approx 0.004", usually measured on the larger gear, that being the countershaft gear. If the crank can turn slightly, you must have a huge amount of backlash or you are not looking at something correctly.

Make sure the chains are free. Turn the engine on its side and the lower chain should fall all of its length out of the case. Do the same on the other side. If they do, then there is something else stopping the engine from turning. The pump should be able to be turned even if it seized some with a long breaker bar on the crank nut. The pump is junk in this case anyways, so turn the engine.

Also, I think you can look inside the scavenge section on these earlier engines, like the later ones. You will be able to see the gears. What could have happened is the scavenge gears failed. Common problem on later GT3 engines. Crazy way Porsche designed the keyway at the bottom of the gear root. If the gear did fail you will probably be able to see. But remember, this can only happen when the engine is running and you would have had an oil pressure issue once the tank was emptied.

[Dpmulvan]

Originally Posted by Neil Harvey

STOP!!!! Don't cut anything yet. That just been a hack!!!! In all my years and engines that were seized, never have I ever had to resort to that. Cannot believe anyone would suggest such a thing. Those that have should never be allowed within 100 yards of an engine.

Think about the whole situation not just that the engine will not turn. If the engine seized when driving it either would have "exploded" or it can be disassembled with some light force. If the pump seized, it would have exploded and you would have had a complete loss of OP. If none of those happened, I'm with the suggestion that the chains are locked together down inside. Often happens.

You say the crank can turn slightly but the counter shaft does not, that's odd too. This is where you need to lock the hacksaw away and sit down with a cold one and think. The backlash is typically approx 0.004", usually measured on the larger gear, that being the countershaft gear. If the crank can turn slightly, you must have a huge amount of backlash or you are not looking at something correctly.

Make sure the chains are free. Turn the engine on its side and the lower chain should fall all of its length out of the case. Do the same on the other side. If they do, then there is something else stopping the engine from turning. The pump should be able to be turned even if it seized some with a long breaker bar on the crank nut. The pump is junk in this case anyways, so turn the engine.

Also, I think you can look inside the scavenge section on these earlier engines, like the later ones. You will be able to see the gears. What could have happened is the scavenge gears failed. Common problem on later GT3 engines. Crazy way Porsche designed the keyway at the bottom of the gear root. If the gear did fail you will probably be able to see. But remember, this can only happen when the engine is running and you would have had an oil pressure issue once the tank was emptied.

Seriously?

[john walker's workshop]

Neil, Give us all a break. He's been through everything that can cause his problem and decided the oil pump is corroded and frozen. There's enough room to get an air saw between the halves and cut the drive shaft and not damage anything else. Big deal, easy to find another one. We're all idiots in your eyes, right?