Recommendation Chi South Suburbs for failed Rebuild
 

Hi all - I’ve had my Porsche 1989 911 3.2 in a rebuild shop for almost two years. It’s been one thing after another for the car, some related to the crankshaft but mostly the shop with countless issues, including a dyno down for months w/o resolve.

The engine is being put back together for the dyno for fine tuning. Mind you, this has been going on since September. Given its state, would you all recommend having the shop put the engine back together and bringing it back up here to another shop to finalize? If so, what percentage of the rebuild price would you suggest I ask off for this work being completed elsewhere?

I have no confidence in this once reputable shop to complete this job anytime soon and would rather cut losses now.

Bring a big friend and go get it. 2 years I wouldn’t trust any work they did on it anyway.

Getting to that point….many on this board recommended this mechanic but it seems his place of business is a thing of the past. The crazy thing is he tells me he has other cars in the same situation.

How much money have you given him? I’d go get your motor before it disappears. Go talk to him man to man and bring a friend.

I’m in 12k for the engine.
Claims all these Porsche engines are blowing up because of bad oil and no one is talking about it. He has 30 days and I’m picking it up.

That's a lot of money up front-What engine is it? Never heard that blowing up story.
Maybe stories are his speciality. Don't wait another thirty days.

As I said in the other thread, have your lawyer write a demand letter. Then he can't ignore it.

Bad oil stories were a thing at one point. That's a bunch of years ago now. Sounds like this guy is full of it.

I wouldn’t wait another 30 days and wouldn’t give him another penny. I’d tell him give it up or I’ll plaster your business and how you screwed me all over the internet. Bad oil what a douche. Stop being nice go get it tomorrow.

Yes , get your engine ASAP .

For a standard 3.2 rebuild, I'm surprised any established shop would take longer than six months once they took delivery of the car. But there's a difference between rebuilds and restoration. If you want every detail re-plated, coated, vapor blasted, etc, that adds lead time. Any upgrades like ITBs and standalone engine management take time as well. Even so, a year seems excessive; two is usually negligence or worse.

Sounds like $12k payment down, the balance on delivery? If the car is close to being finished, a good shop would want to finish the work and get paid. If they're making excuses at this stage, I'd want to put hands on the car and make sure it's really this close to completion.

Also, is this a stock (or basic bolt-ons) rebuild or is there more to it? What work was agreed upon? Do you have a signed estimate? Most shops aren't doing dyno work for stockish 3.2 motronic rebuilds so I feel like there's more to the story.

I'm localish to Chicago and probably know the shop. If you won't post it, feel free to PM.

This is out of Indy.

He was doing all the bench work himself. The crankshaft failed and that took 5 months to find someone to fix it his liking. Again, he blames the power company for his dyno failure, oil companies for blowing engines, ect. The goal was to up HP close to 300HP total.

From what I’ve heard from others on this board, this guy was once a really good mechanic but I think he’s close to 80 years old now and I’m not sure what’s reality or not Anymore. What is even worse, is he had another car in the shop for a similar timeframe to mine, who I believe the owner wasn’t as patient as me. He said the car lasted 10 miles before blowing. I just think he doesn’t have the answers anymore or is doing something wrong That these problems keep happening to him specifically.







QUOTE=shoooo32;12366134]For a standard 3.2 rebuild, I'm surprised any established shop would take longer than six months once they took delivery of the car. But there's a difference between rebuilds and restoration. If you want every detail re-plated, coated, vapor blasted, etc, that adds lead time. Any upgrades like ITBs and standalone engine management take time as well. Even so, a year seems excessive; two is usually negligence or worse.

Sounds like $12k payment down, the balance on delivery? If the car is close to being finished, a good shop would want to finish the work and get paid. If they're making excuses at this stage, I'd want to put hands on the car and make sure it's really this close to completion.

Also, is this a stock (or basic bolt-ons) rebuild or is there more to it? What work was agreed upon? Do you have a signed estimate? Most shops aren't doing dyno work for stockish 3.2 motronic rebuilds so I feel like there's more to the story.

I'm localish to Chicago and probably know the shop. If you won't post it, feel free to PM.[/QUOTE]

The guy is 80 years old and I doubt that will matter much. My guess is he will be out of business or retire shortly.

$12,000 to start is pretty low for a 3.2 rebuild. That is less than half the final total correct? Machine work is taking a long time these days, and parts, while available are not as straight forward to procure as it use to be. A year is simply not out of the predictable range (coming from someone who does this for a living, not just some poster throwing it out there).

Look, these awful recommendations like "go get nasty on the Internet" (What is with people using ratings as a weapon? Often times that just leads to incorrect slanted ramblings that are easily discounted. And think about this... Just maybe something is causing the delay that is not the service providers fault. And your petty nasty "review" then cast shade on a reputable business that now has to combat any result of that one star BS. Is that fair to the employees of that establishment that have families & bills they need to keep in check. No. Plus, who reads reviews? Only the kind of customer a business does not want).

Then how about the "Take a big friend with you" Do you think that actually works? Send someone in to my place, we all sporting guys that carry. You are going to look pretty silly standing there unprepared for that. Today is not the time to get in peoples face.

Those suggestions are simply not going to help.

Now to be rational, that might be the trick. Go in to Bobs and sit down with him. Ask what the delay was/is, and then afterwards put a plan together (like your 30 days). Jot down the agreement & let him know that you are still a fan (you took the job to him to begin with) but you need results. If his explanation suits you, then relax. If it does not, then have him explain it so that you DO understand. (Remember, you do not know the business like he does. Have him explain it. Do you really think he wants to hold onto your stuff for any longer than he has to? No he does not).

Work with him, but have an understanding. If it does not progress, then let him know you will be taking it away and that he will need to give you a final invoice reflecting that. Heck, he may want you to take it.

I have projects that go over-time. But I constantly communicate to the customers why. It is normally parts delays, (we have been waiting on suspension for a safari build from a reputable nationally known vendor for 5 months now) but often it is simply staff. One of my techs father died this week, he took the week off. Another had a daughter that needed tonsils out, and he took time off for that too. That put us behind for the holiday season period. Most reasonable customers understand on project cars that are not used for every day transportation.

So, stay diligent, and trusting until it is not explainable any-longer. If deadlines are not met (within reason) part ways. But be warned, places like Bobs are going away (then what are you non mechanical people going to do?). I would suggest you help him survive, not suffer.

I appreciate the advice. We spoke and I have a 30 day window to make progress. The problem is he seems to be blaming engine issues on the quality of oil and his dyno, which has been down for 3+ months isn’t getting fixed to finish the job. Another owner w a similar rebuild just had his vehicle fail after 10 miles on the new engine. In talking with him, he doesn’t seem to have an answer other than blaming oil companies. I don’t think that changes in 30 days. Are your vehicles blowing up after rebuilds consistently, as he claims are happening?

In your opinion, is 19months not excessive for a rebuild?

I feel like I’ve been extremely patient, and I think that’s why I’m being taken advantage of. I have zero confidence this guy can either complete or trust this rebuild won’t blow out shortly after. I’m a business owner myself so I understand both sides of the aisle. IMO I’d be out of business if this is how I treated my customers. There are plenty of shops that I could have chosen to do this job. I gave him the opportunity because of his reputation and small business background. If his shop goes away, it’s no ones fault but his own….





QUOTE=MichaelB;12367116]$12,000 to start is pretty low for a 3.2 rebuild. That is less than half the final total correct? Machine work is taking a long time these days, and parts, while available are not as straight forward to procure as it use to be. A year is simply not out of the predictable range (coming from someone who does this for a living, not just some poster throwing it out there).

Look, these awful recommendations like "go get nasty on the Internet" (What is with people using ratings as a weapon? Often times that just leads to incorrect slanted ramblings that are easily discounted. And think about this... Just maybe something is causing the delay that is not the service providers fault. And your petty nasty "review" then cast shade on a reputable business that now has to combat any result of that one star BS. Is that fair to the employees of that establishment that have families & bills they need to keep in check. No. Plus, who reads reviews? Only the kind of customer a business does not want).

Then how about the "Take a big friend with you" Do you think that actually works? Send someone in to my place, we all sporting guys that carry. You are going to look pretty silly standing there unprepared for that. Today is not the time to get in peoples face.

Those suggestions are simply not going to help.

Now to be rational, that might be the trick. Go in to Bobs and sit down with him. Ask what the delay was/is, and then afterwards put a plan together (like your 30 days). Jot down the agreement & let him know that you are still a fan (you took the job to him to begin with) but you need results. If his explanation suits you, then relax. If it does not, then have him explain it so that you DO understand. (Remember, you do not know the business like he does. Have him explain it. Do you really think he wants to hold onto your stuff for any longer than he has to? No he does not).

Work with him, but have an understanding. If it does not progress, then let him know you will be taking it away and that he will need to give you a final invoice reflecting that. Heck, he may want you to take it.

I have projects that go over-time. But I constantly communicate to the customers why. It is normally parts delays, (we have been waiting on suspension for a safari build from a reputable nationally known vendor for 5 months now) but often it is simply staff. One of my techs father died this week, he took the week off. Another had a daughter that needed tonsils out, and he took time off for that too. That put us behind for the holiday season period. Most reasonable customers understand on project cars that are not used for every day transportation.

So, stay diligent, and trusting until it is not explainable any-longer. If deadlines are not met (within reason) part ways. But be warned, places like Bobs are going away (then what are you non mechanical people going to do?). I would suggest you help him survive, not suffer.[/QUOTE]

What was the original time quoted to perform the work?

4-5 months

Honestly you sound reasonable.

I will say that with your 300HP expectations - 6 months (like has been mentioned) is simply not a timeline that I would have agreed to... But that is moot as you have exceeded that anyway. My professional opinion is that a custom Porsche engine build is nearly 12 months + & $35,000. I do a healthy number of them with that timeline.

So stay the course, stay a team player, help him / dont hinder him. You do NOT know 100% what he is going through, either professionally or personally.

I often see road-rage, and think to myself that I dont know what that person is going through - and what may have triggered them. And with that said you dont completely know what may have triggered the result so far with your build. Again though, you think you could have gone somewhere else, but the results could have been similar elsewhere. Work with the cards dealt to you my man.

Now for the oil. He is right. I deal with bore scoring on Porsche, BMW, Benz etc. every week. Not once a week, but many days (seeing 5000 cars a year). BMW now insists that you use their exclusive "twin power" (look it up) oil or they wont honor engine failures. When the latest Mobil 1 is used incorrectly in an AMG Benz, we often end up with a $90,000 new AMG engine invoice. Porsche? Look at the bore scoring clamor. It is for real. These peeps above who claim oil failure is BS are 100% incorrect. We use additives for oil changes now. And use boutique oils (Redline, Brad Penn, Motul, Rotella T) in specialty applications exclusively. If he is seeing bearing failures & such he can competently claim oil faults (and user error too).

Its not rocket science though... Todays oils have to be implemented incorrectly to cause the failure. You dont just pour it in & fail. It takes a little effort from the non-mechanical to make that so.

Anyhow. I hope I have helped. So many people just talk smack. I want to help.

I’ve done my part and you say non mechanical folks using oils are causing failures, except he was the one who filled the oil on the latest rebuild and it failed shortly after. How does that give me any confidence? Not too mention, he decides to tell me this has been an ongoing issue for 4 years, which was never mentioned to me when we discussed the rebuild.

You want to help….you seem to know him, give him a call and be a team player, since you are the only one on the thread who seems to understand these issues.

Remember, I did state "user error" not just oils. If the initial break-in is not done correctly by the end user (or whomever) than all bets are off.

I do not know Bob, but I do know this. There are less & less craftsmen and shooting one will not help your cause.

Stay cool, you prob wont be driving it off-season anyhow. It could not be a better time to have a delay.

Mike must be friends with the guy. You’re not paying huge amounts of money to listen to his personal or professional problems or to be a team player, you’re paying him a lot of money to put together a simple motor. Love the part about packing heat too give me a freaking break.

Interesting thread. I've been following along since the beginning. I agree with about 90% of what MichaelB has added, and will now add my own thoughts. I manufacture porsche transmission hardparts for a living. My gears or LSDs would be akin to a crankshaft or rods in your scenario. I have clients who have been waiting 18 months for a single part while we continue to try to return to some sort of normal following covid. I sell to many of the top engine builders in America, places like Dawes, Rothsport, Sharkwerks, etc. They are having the same waits and problems getting cranks and the like for their builds, and not just my gearbox parts. It's an industry wide problem. That's in addition to your specific unique problems you've been describing.

I feel bad seeing this happen, especially since I was one of the people in your original thread to find a builder who pointed you towards Farmers. I'm now going to tell you that I think it's time for you to gather up your project and find a different builder. You have lost trust here. I don't see it coming back, just based on how you replied to Michael. You're over it. Get your bill settled, pick up your parts, and find a new place as the title of this thread suggests.

Nobody ever diagnosed a failure like this on the internet. We don't have enough facts or detail, and you likely lack the technical knowledge to communicate it, even if you had all the facts yourself. It's mostly just an echo chamber where people rile you up and send you back into the shop looking for a fight. That never ends well.

In fact, as someone on the other side of this, if I were Bob and saw this thread I would fire you as a customer. The internet has become a weapon to go attack people's brands and reputation as a form of hostage taking to attempt to get what you want. But nobody ever removes a Yelp review or Pelican thread after the resolution, and rarely comes and 6 months from now with a running driving car to explain how it all got worked out. It's not a never thing, but it's exceptional.

I get wanting to understand the problem and learn to ascertain if what you've been told about the failure is real or BS. But airing your dirty laundry and naming names isn't that. Bob is getting old. He isn't going to be doing this much longer, but has 1000s upon 1000s of bulletproof 911 engine builds under his belt. Maybe he screwed this one up. Maybe it's an oil or a parts problem. It really doesn't matter. What matters is you keep your business your business and don't use the internet for reputational assassination.

2 years

The guy has waited 2 years for a simple build with bogus excuses. He’s out $12000 and a motor And now you’re blaming him? Firing him as a customer what is wrong with you guys? Bunch of prima Donna’s.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I'm not blaming him for anything except airing his dirty laundry. He's not some rape victim that I'm telling shouldn't have worn that sexy dress and got what he deserved.

Bob is NOT out to F this guy. Something has happened here. I won't even pretend to know what it is, and anyone who does is just fanning the flames here. I'm reading the tone and attitude and my assessment is the OP no longer trusts his builder. That's the point where you move on, and find a resolution that does NOT involve finishing the job. It really is that simple.

This is a tech forum. People seem to forget that sometimes. We lack requisite pictures and information to help with any technical advice. My relationship advice is this relationship no longer works for either of them and they need to break up.

I own a business myself, but do not understand what and why you’d consider this character assassination. This is legitimately what is going on with my situation for the past 19 months.I was asking simply for advice regarding oil and some of these far-fetched excuses that I’m hearing from the shop. This is a tech forum, so you should be able to get that advice here. Also, I know they’re taking additional vehicles in daily and I’m not the first person who’s been waiting for this long for their vehicle to come back. Yes, I do not want somebody to experience what I have, since apparently this has been going on in that shop for four years and it’s not being talked about. My original post was simply to better understand the situation which majority of folks are telling me is just not true. I run a business as does he, unfortunately, we have to manage through our customers and to date, I’ve been an exceptionally good one, giving a lot of money to a shop for nothing in return.

You were fine until you named names. As a reader, your thread took a hard turn for me when you did that. You seem like a nice guy and you are in a complete crap situation. I hope you work it out with Bob.

I appreciate that….as a business owner, unfortunately, you have to accept the fact folks will be critical of your work right or wrong.

So I re-read the thread, and my first reply, and I was too subtle with a big point I was trying to make. At one point you ask is 18 months unreasonable? Yes and no.

Do you know who Armando is? He's the air cooled crankshaft guy. I have no idea if he's even still in business, but prior to covid there were times where he had a 2 year waiting list. There used to Rick Jacksic on the east coast. Many people used him for their machine work, but the wait was often 6 months or more. He died during covid. No idea where NE guys now go. Ask people how long they waited for their cases from Walt at CE. Is several months reasonable to try to find someone who can properly repair a crankshaft and do it? Absolutely.

His dyno. Do you know what has failed on it? He's blaming the power company. Maybe it's a power unit. Maybe the ECU is fried. That stuff is proprietary. He doesn't just order dynapack or mustang parts on Amazon. He's stuck waiting on their supply chain. Might be half a year. So again, this kind of wait is totally reasonable in our post covid world.

I don't know a single good air cooled engine builder without a 1 year waiting list right now. And I know dozens of them. There are parts shortages. There are labor shortages. There are subcontractor shortages as people find new people do do things for them now that the guy they used for 20 years doesn't exist anymore. The grocery stores are full. Target, Walmart and Amazon have everything. What do you mean I can't get glyco rod bearings for 8 months? Porsche parts is a different world. And the vendors and the mechanics are all getting older. Maybe your mechanic now works 35 hour weeks versus 50 hours weeks, because that's what an 80 year old body can do.

18 months is not an unreasonable amount of time today, right now, at the end of 2024. I wouldn't have answered the question the same way end of 2019.

I have no answer to your oil questions. My first post peripherally attempted to point out what I have just added. In your attempts to reach some sort of detente in your situation, pick your battles. How long the crank took or the dyno repair took are things beyond his control. Leave it off your list of grievances with him, and focus on the action items. You cannot change the past and there's no upside to hitting your mechanic upside the head with them. That's if you want him to finish the job.

MichaelB, you might be one of the good ones, but several people here can assure you that there a large number of shops and vendors who are not straight up. That's not "talking smack." Whatever his problems are, it certainly appears he has not been forthright. I would not be Mr. Nice either.

As for oil problems, I have been running cheap-ass Quaker State full synthetic 5W-30 in my car for the past year and almost 5000 miles. No adverse effects so far, very little change in valve clearances. I'm about to pull an oil sample and have it analyzed. Yes, this is an experiment of mine. But if any old oil you can buy at Walmart on sale works in my engine, I seriously doubt these reports of oil failure as the primary cause. The failures may be lubrication related (loss of pressure?), but I think the oil is very unlikely the culprit.

So, yeah, this sounds like bullcrap to me too.