Cloggie,
Will the standard Carrera 3.2 AC compressor fit or do you have to use the possibly shorter compressor fitted to 964/993's to provide sufficient clearance between the end of the compressor and the intake manifold?

It is an awfully small space and have not bought the AC compressor yet. I had been looking at the Sanden 505 - baby brother of the commonly used 507 - as it is shorter and I really do not need AC all that much, so if has less capacity that's OK.

I am also prepared to redo the fuel lines, probably putting in a banjo there which will gain a little space.

That will get done this winter, right now the priority is getting the engine in the car, running and tuned.

D.

I'm not an AC guru, however, I'll condense what I've read here and my moderate experience with AC in other cars:

The compressor does not usually limit AC performance. That appears to be the case with 911's too. Instead, what limits AC performance is the condenser. That's why most 911 AC systems have 2 of them. The evaporator also limits performance, but there is almost no room to change that in the 911, unless you change to the Classic Retrofit electric AC setup.

I agree with your assessment and it has formed the basis of what was done for this issue in addition to an upgraded evaporator and fan courtesy of Griffiths.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753105194.jpg

Its a 993 condenser and 964 lines.....besides getting all the condenser crap out of the engine compartment and helping with the engine cooling a little bit, it also moves a bit of weight forward.


...but back to engines, just finished the last piece of wiring yesterday, busy today but I think tomorrow the engine comes off of the stand and gets mated to the transmission. Sorta scared about that as I am terrified of dropping the thing and all I have are the wives to assist....and both are under 50kg.....

D.

Re getting it off the stand, best have an overhead sling and winch fully supporting the engine weight. If it gets away from your team, really bad things can/will happen.

I have a 1 ton chain hoist with a strong mount on a big roof beam - about 1 m tall and 30 cm wide, so I ought to be OK....just nervous is all, as falling is a bad thing for sure...

D.

Way back when, I was moving a 911 engine on a 3 legged stand when one wheel caught on the concrete causing the engine to tip over. Instinctively a stuck my leg under the engine to break the fall. I never did that again. Caution is the key.

Holy merde! Did you sacrifice your leg to protect the engine and was the engine damaged? I can only imagine what would happen if I dropped the thing.....scary thought.

....and yes, I will be hoisting a few inches, make sure its stable, remove the stand. Then get the jack with the neat little engine carrier our host sells under it asap and get it lowered to ground level as soon as possible.

I have a very high lift AC Hydraulic jack andn that little carrier seems to be pretty well fitting and makes the whole thing stable.

I am pretty sure I will be OK.....

https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/PW011000002.htm?pn=PW-01-100-0002&bc=c&SVSVSI=0602http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/eek3.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/eek3.gif:eek:

Following this thread with great interest.

I am building a single-plug, smogged 3.2 to 3.4 to run on 91 octane right now, and I'm getting close to closing up my case. Using Mahle Max Moritz style crowns (crown volume: 35.8cc) 98mm 10.1:1 pistons. Dougherty has re-ground my cams to 964 specs. I will probably retain the stock HE's with an aftermarket pre-muffler & exhaust. Steve Wong chip also. Supertec head studs and ARP rod bolts.

I just got my heads back from the machine shop- a slight chamfer was machined into the combustion chamber circumference for the 98mm pistons. My old burette broke, so another is on its way- I still need to measure chamber volumes and measure deck heights to compute my static CR.

I have found some erroneous info on the web regarding the 3.2 to 3.4L Mahle piston kits- the 3.0 to 3.2 Mahle piston/cyl kit is offered as a 9.8:1 CR with a 35.4cc crown volume. The 3.2 to 3.4 Mahle piston/cyl kits offered are- 11:1 (43.2 crown volume) or a 10.1:1 (35.8cc crown volume). (Mahle pistons for the L&N Nikies cyl's might be something different...IDK)

It is interesting to note that (per Mahle) the 11:1 piston's CR is based upon running a twin-plug head with a 92cc chamber volume (presumably, the extra plug hole increases chamber vol by ~2cc ?). I am also guessing that this piston is NOT a Max Moritz style piston, as it is also designed for higher lift cams.

My heads were fly-cut, chamfered, and all of the valve seats were re-ground. All valves were serviceable, so re-used & re-ground. Shifting valve heights/re-surfacing the heads and the chamfer will all affect the chamber volume, and I am curious to see what it is all going to add up to vs. the supposed 90cc factory chamber volume. I am guessing that the sinking of the valves will produce the largest change to the chamber volumes.

I am hoping that the CR will come in at something lower than 10:1, so that I don't need to pull out too much ign timing. I don't think I will be needing cylinder base shims (would prefer not to), but we'll see.

I will post my individual chamber volumes here, along with my deck height(s), once I have them.

Mahle 98mm 10.1:1 piston/Cyl kit specs:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753460201.png

The 964 cam is very mild: good for CIS builds where you can’t have much overlap (sensor plate reverb) but leaves a lot on the table for EFI/Motronic.

A more aggressive cam would also avoid you having to overthink your CR, as your dynamic CR — which is what matters — will be lower. Shimming your cylinders to further lower the CR is just throwing power away.

10.2:1 single plug here + 993SS cams on a 3.2SS = ~7.78:1 dynamic CR.

Understood. The reason I am going with a 964 cam is the same reason that I am not going with twin plug heads- At the moment, the engine has to pass visual and tailpipe emissions tests... I would have loved to have gone with something like the DC cam, but I could not find any data regarding owners having success with it during a smog check. I do not want to have to pull the cams out if it doesn't pass emissions, so I chose not to roll the dice and left those hp gains on the table....

The 964 cam was chosen as a compromise between performance and passing emissions. The stock 3.2 cam, is very mild- the 964 does have something to offer in comparison... that said, I am not expecting much from the 964 cams- my 3.2 cams needed to be re-ground, and so rather than go with stock I decided to bump it up just a little.

If I was in another state, many things about this build would definitely change!

Sorry gents...I guess I wasn't subscribed to my own thread or it never took when created. Glad this morphed into something that has helped some people.

In the end, I went with Mahle 98mm P/C (11:1), 993 cams, twin plug set up as basics.

Steve W. just finished my DME/ECU conversion for the project. I will be running the 993/964 ignition set up w/ CR at 10:5 on 91 octane.


Only have a brief photo as I am on the road for a few weeks...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1753731507.jpg




Keeping the heat with 41mm OD SSI exchangers and an M/K 2in2out exhaust.

This has been my first attempt at what was going to be a top end rebuild to moving up to a 3.4 build. Between Bruce Anderson's books, my mechanic and the forums been quite an adventure. Still a lot to learn and claim zero expertise but I understand so much more and can't believe how this has made ownership so much better and more personal.

I am so impressed with those of you who do this on your own and have the time and knowledge.

I really wanted to have a real go at it (at least a basic top end), but with my wife and I's lifestyle and 2 moves in the past few years had to over the shoulder a lot of this with my mechanic and his shop - which I am very grateful.

Still a ways to go, but I am very happy with where I have ended up.

When I get home I will try and post some photos of the progress as it was happening this spring/summer.

Erik

...and, thank you to everyone posting here.

I am not going to say "the while you are in there" is not a real thing but when you really start to compare things, I will say, a lot of the upgrades do make sense -and it pains me to say that :)

It has definitely cost more, but this car is going to the grave with me and yes, a 3.6 probably would have been 'better' or other options for more HP, in the end I felt most confident with this path, with my knowledge base, expense and time.


Erik

Nicely done!

Erik, I've often considered that I should have just bought a complete 3.6 engine 5 years ago for $15K or so and sold my 3.0 as a core. Oh well, "next time."

"oh, well, maybe next time..."

I have said that to my mechanic a many times over the past few months :)

Looking awfully fine...nice job and ain't it fun!!

D.

Cloggie, motor is coming together very well. Love the early airbox.

Have you had a chance to test fit it in your engine bay? My 3.4L on PMOs (long manifolds) with an early air filter is an extremely tight fit. Had to shim engine to lower it and it's still marginal and will need to find a way to lower further. Just a heads up since you're very nearly there on your build.

I just finished measuring my rebuilt cyl head combustion chamber volumes with my burette & plexi cover plate. Here's what they came in at:

cc's

90.5
92.5
91.25
91.8
92.6
92.0

This seems like a rather wide variance to me....

This will give me various static CR's from 9.7:1 to 10:1.

I am curious as to what should be considered as "acceptable" variations? I assumed that the chamber would have their volumes equalized much closer than this.

What do you think?

Good thing you measured them Dave, that's quite the variation. I would say not a good thing, it's time to even them out.

I did some measurements and yes, it is quite tight.

Engine is going in today (with luck) and then I will know for sure. From what I can tell, it will be tight but OK.

I will let everyone know what the outcome is

D.

Since this thread is the equivalent of what we used to call a "party wave" in Hawaii (everybody gets to ride- no priority!), I'll continue to post re my build here...


I am working to equalize my combustion chamber volumes.

After re-measuring all of the rebuilt cylinders, I found that I had chamber volumes ranging from 89.5 to 92.0 cc, with no apparent difference in the height of the valve faces.

I decided to measure the depth of each "flycut" in the head, and found that these varied as well....

So I listed the cylinders from smallest depth to largest depth, and looked at the measured cc's of each. I took one cyl that had a larger depth, but a smaller cc volume, and swapped the valves from it into the cylinder that had the larger depth and a larger cc volume. I managed to move each chamber volume -0.55cc and +0.75cc to get them closer to equal.

So my 89.5cc chamber increased to 90.25cc, and my 91.8cc chamber decreased to 91.25cc.

I have some more swapping to do, but my individual cyl head CR variance went from 0.3:1 to 0.2:1 with just this one swap. My goal is to get the individual cyl CR variance down to .01:1.

I will have to have a slight amount of material ground off of the valve margins in the 90.25cc cyl head to get there (I'll need to sink each valve to get +0.5cc per valve). I haven't done the math yet, but I don't think this will require much material to be removed. I have plenty of margin left on the valves to do this, I believe.

After I get the chamber volumes as close as I can, I will need to figure out how much variation you can have from head-to-head for the cam housing mating surface.

Right now, I've got three heads grouped together that will have a max height difference of .0001" and another group of heads that have a max height difference of .0012" (might have to get one of more of those machined?),

"Cylinder heights" is my term for the measurement from the cam housing mating surface to the cylinder head to cylinder mating surface (thickness of each head).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754021775.jpg

Before I started swapping valves:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754021775.jpg

Lots of options for you. Did my 3.4 build last year to these specs:

Euro Mahles
Carillo Rods
Single plug heads reworked
Sal Carecellers reworked ECU
Modified Intake, eliminated MAF with cold air intake
Larger Throttle Body
993 Injectors
993 SS cams
Clewett wires
Patrick MotorSport lightweight flywheel
Sachs power clutch
Roth Sport Light Weight Crank Pulley
Bill Boat BB 1 3/4 headers with heat
BB Muffler

Runs strong in my 2080 lb early 911 long hood

That's a lotta goodies...

My build is budget and CA smog limited...!

I feel for you on the smog checks in CA i remember the hassle on my 84 Carrera and the frustration with getting it to pass. That is why i got into pre 76 cars when i lived in Cali. i just wanted to avoid the hassle with CARB

I heard Jay Leno's law might pass with a 30 year rolling exemption which will be great for your build. and all the other classic car owners in Cali

Leno's Bill has been significantly modified to get it passed. Starting in 2027, 1980 and earlier cars will be exempt.

In 2028, 1981 and earlier will be exempt, etc.... so every year they will add another year of exempted vehicles. I've got a long way to go with my 1985.

My last 911 was a 1974, and I bought it for the very reason that you stated. I was all set to look for another '75 or earlier car, when a friend agreed to sell his '85 to me. So here I am.

{BIG EDIT}

Regarding measuring my chamber volumes: It took me quite a lot of trial and error to discover a proper, repeatable, reliable method when using my plastic burette. Very long story short- all of my chamber volumes are within 0.5cc's except for one, which has the smallest chamber (88.5cc)

Well this just sucks.

Got the engine in the car - much frustration as my nice high lift AC Hydraulic jack fouled the fancy engine cradle I bought from our host and I was unable to tilt the engine sufficiently to get the transmission shaft into the car. Ended up jacking the back of the car up....in it went.

Two issues.

First, I do have the 100 mm intake manifolds and yes, they are too high to allow the air cleaner to fit. The "short" manifolds are 84 mm, so about 1/2" shorter, not sure that is enough to make the difference....but I am researching it.

Second, for some reason the muffler will not clear the sheet metal....so I had to pull it off and now I have to figure out if it will fit at all.....

I'll start another thread so I do not change the topic of this one....

D.

Hopefully you can post here of a positive outcome. Good stuff you have been posting.

I started the thread and here I am months later with a totally different build. Your post, and others have been good for me and hopefully those thinking about doing these 'upgrades'.

Some of it is probably technical for some just starting engine work, but seems like the flow has been good for those contributing.

Keep us all in the loop and hopefully others with 3.4 or other builds can contribute as time goes on...



Our mistakes or less than stellar outcomes can be learning experiences for others down the road...:)


Erik

Little off topic but thought I would share in regards to 3.2 to 3.4 builds. These are the 41mm OD heat exchangers I just received from Dansk/SSI (Europe). Also came with new oil lines and a muffler in a kit. Instead of the 2in/1out muffler that came with the kit am going with a 2in/2out from RarlyL8...




Thought I would share before the install:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754854510.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1754854510.jpg





Erik

I can already hear the tunes inside them, waiting to be set free...

Man, that is the hope.

Should be finishing the rebuild in the next few weeks. Just waiting on a muffler....

Cautiously nervous for the start up, the break in and the new "sound".



Erik

Man, some cool stuff in here, this is my favourite thread.

Just an update on those putting in PMO's with a rear window wiper.

The post-1974 rear wiper set up hits the ITB's so it either has to go or be backdated to the pre-74 set up.

Since I spent an inordinate amount of time converting the rear wiper to intermittent, the parts to mount with the '73 mounting location are in transit.

One step forward, one step back....

D.

Ha, good for you! I actually sourced the entire rear wiper set up over the course of a couple years and once my new engine is in place and the bodywork and respray are done I am finally going to install. Been packed up for over 4 years waiting on the install.

I grew up in Germany and the two 911's in my life back then had the rear wipers - guess it's a bit of nostalgia for me...that and side markers.

I am sure it will kill my weight savings and aerodynamics per everyone from the forums :)

Dropped off (at my shop) my heat exchangers, new oil lines, reprogrammed and chipped DME per Steve W., 993 coils, 964 dizzy, wires, and a whole bunch of other goodies and looking forward to head down to the shop next week to totally get in the way of my mechanic.

Hopefully I will remember to take some photos. Probably another month with the paint and new engine install. Nice to be at the tail end.



Erik

Progress again today.

Motec guy came over, checked out all the wiring - everything we checked (TPS, fuel pump etc) is working perfectly.

I have some homework to do like measure the temperature sensor calibration, but then its oil, fuel, check for leaks and fire up! It will be broken in on the dyno...

One major issue is that the CarGraphic exhaust gets in the way of the rear bumperettes and centre panel (it is a backdate) likely as the engine was moved about 25mm back to make room for the transmission. I am trying to figure out how to resolve it....but can't put the car on the road as bumpers are considered safety equipment.

Sigh.

D.

watching

Having issues with heat ducting on my 3.2 to 3.4 build and found this old thread. Wanting to keep the heat original and looks like this might be a work around and wondering if anyone has had similar issues or seen an alternative.

1986 3.2 to 3.4 build using the 964 distributor. Trying to keep the heat as I just installed new SSI heat exchangers for this sole purpose.


Any insight is appreciated...

Erik





Photo and write up are from this thread:

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/56887-3-2-3-4l-twin-plug-conversion.html


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756936736.jpg


- The twin plug distributor interferes with the plastic duct that goes from the side of the engine fan up to the heater blower. A friend and I removed the duct and clamped it with some blocks of wood and then heated it up with heat gun to give it a factory looking bulge that clears the distributor. I was really proud of the way it came out.

- The new twin plug distributor is also in the way of the plastic duct that feeds air from the blower motor to the heat exchangers. I modified the inlet of the stainless "T" that feeds air to the heat exchangers and made a new hole in the engine tin for a length of heater hose. This was not totally satisfactory. (The hose goes inside the "T" instead of being clamped on the outside and blows out sometimes.) I wound up not using the plastic elbow in the picture, it interfered with the motor mount.

Erik, I know you are way down the road on this project, but let me ask: Did you consider the CLewett dual plug setup? No distributor to get in the way and need maintenance, just coils on or near plugs, about $2000. If so, why did you choose the 964 dual distributor?

Hmm...well, that is a good question. I guess I had all the parts and bits to make it easy. I knew I would be sending my DME to Steve W. for refurbishment and after talking to him about his DME conversion for dual plug seemed pretty simple from there.

I guess I was stubborn - do to having all these parts around me just setting and it seemed to keep with build I wanted to achieve.

Absolutely looked at Clewett electronics and also their throttle body kits...

Overall I am excited about things, just disappointed I hadn't had the foresight to think about the heat system per this thread question.


Erik

85RedCarrera, i saw your old comment wondering about smog. About 10 years ago i redid my '88 to a 3.4L, single plug w/ 964 cams. Still running stock Motronic with a custom chip. Also stock heat exchangers and a aftermarket CA legal cat. It passes smog with zero issues, its emissions numbers are remarkably low. I've got somewhere around 20k miles on the engine. Dyno tuned shortly after break in, 252whp/235ft-lbs with no muffler at the time. I think this dyno is pretty generous... more important than the numbers is its a strong engine. I think the CR was 9.6:1, but id need to check my records to confirm. Running safely on 91oct was a requirement.

At the time, i probably would have gone wild and did a twin plug / ITB setup if i didnt need to contend w/ smog. Looking back, wish i had just done a 3.6 swap... 3.6's are double the price nowadays :).

Sweden Engine Heat?
 

Erik,

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1756936736.jpg

After seeing this photo a while ago, I did some ROW PET digging and found the heat setup appears to be from a Sweden engine. Here's my findings post from 3.2 Twin Plug heater duct clearance