replated, maybe? I was wondering the same thing.

Read the entire thread. Alusils are not coated.

I am quite familiar with alusil technology. I have never heard of re-glazing, I would like to find out exactly what 1fastredsc had done.

Here is some of the latest that I have heard from the gurus.
I called and talked to Henry about my alusils and he said that the main problem with them is that you can not just use any rings with them. In his experience he said that the dealer was the only one that typically had them and that they were around $500 a set (Yikes!). A real wise man who is very open with his experience on the phone as well as on line. Thanks Henry.

I then talked to the "old timer" in Canada, Larry Taylor and he was such a blast to talk to. Real funny guy that is also very wise. He had not heard of alusil referred to as such. He called it T-390 hypereutechtic alluminum sillicone. He explaned the art of "lapping" in the cylinders via the methods revieled with in this thread and said that he had been doing it for years. He also mentioned the ferrite coating that is on the alusil pistons. He did differ, however, on the rings. He said that you have to use chrome rings (I may have mixed up this point, someone will chime in) and that he could get them for me for my set. I will be communicating with Larry further because he also knows a lot and gives it freely.

What I would like to find out about is the whole grape hone thing. What has happened on that front of the revolution.

I hope that this contributes something to this epic thread.
-Mike

Larry did my cylinders and suplied tthe rings. I believe I still have the boxes if anyone wants to know part no.'s.

I used the Goetze rings with success.

Paul,
I want to know the part numbers!
Thanks,
Mike

I used Goetze rings as well! 500miles on the rebuild so far and shes running strong.

Pelican Part # H-103-963-00

Bump - PBH, did you find your part numbers? that would be good to record here.

Goetze Part No.

2.7L,150/175 PS
911/S 08/74-07/77
90x1.5+1,75+4 mm Std.


Sold as Federal Mogul 08-319800-10.

Please do not come back and tell me these are wrong....

so those are chrome rings, right?

I'm sorry i don't know the proper terminology for it. It's that process where the walls are scuffed and then layered with that paste that some of these gentlemen here have spoke of. I didn't do it though, i sent them out to be done.
EDIT: I also used Goetze rings, cost me about 220 for the set. And i cross referenced the number on my PET and it said they are rings for the late model sc's and carreras.

No idea, I just trusted Larry....

ok, thanks for the response, PBH.

Here is more info:
I just called MotorMeister as they advertize that they sell rings for the alusil cylinder. The guy there said that you can only use Deves rings with alusils that have been done with the Sunnen method. He said that you can only use Goetze with "like new" cylinders. I asked why and he said that the surface would not be perfectly "flat"...what? He then said that you need to hhave your pistons treated due to the coating that we have already discussed here. This is the first time that I have heard this, has anyone else? They offer the complete service with pistons, cylinders, and rings for $495. Does this extra factor seem to make sense? I also tried to find out what the rings were made of, like chrome, and the guy would not tell me. He just said that "you need to ues Deves, it doesnt matter what they are made of."
Anyone have anymore info on this?
Thanks,
Mike

Sunnen is the name of a company that makes machining equipment, lapping is the name of the procedure, and most of us have used goetze rings with no problems. I think the "scientists" at motormeister are pulling your leg dude.

"I think the "scientists" at motormeister are pulling your leg dude."

I agree! I talked to Larry Taylor in Canada again yesterday as well. I like talking to him because he looks at this stuff not only from a machinist stand point, but from a metalurgist stand point as well. He said that you must use chrome plated (at least) with the alusil (T-390) as softer metals will not stand up to the silicon. Consequently, Larry uses the Goetze rings as, PBH stated. Larry said that he didn't particularly care for the one piece oil rings that come with the Goetze and would like to find a three piece ring to use as it would offer better oil control. Oddly enough, my rings were the three piece type. The rings on my engine looked like the ones on my TIV engine...!? I have had luck with my engine in that the DAPO upgraded some things, but didn't seem to assemble it very well...all of the head nuts were like 5lb of torque.
Larry has a toll free number if you all want to call him: 866-859-3293

Are the rings that we are using for our alusils, the Goetze, the same ones used in the nikasil?

hmm... Motormeister vs a guy that knows what he's doing? hmm.... how I can I possibly decide? Oh the agony of this decision....

"hmm... Motormeister vs a guy that knows what he's doing? hmm.... how I can I possibly decide? Oh the agony of this decision...."

Exactly. I just wanted to post all of the info that I have gathered so that others will have a chance to steer away from the BS and make an informed decision. this post was very timely for me as I am doing my engine now. It is amazing how many different ideas about the alusil there still are. The guy at MotorMeister at first said that the cylinder was made of all aluminum untill I schooled him with the info I learned on this thread....still tried to talk me into the extra services though..

See first few pages on this thread for more info regarding Goetze rings. I work with the guy responsible for Goetze ring specs & put my faith in what he said in terms of being able to re-ring Alusils (plus all the other great info which came out of this thread). I've now covered 1600 miles since rebuild and it's running better than ever, with virtually no oil consumption...

Thanks, Nathan. I forgot about that. You have to admit, it is a long thread and it is hard to remember every detail. By the time I get to the end I have forgotten so much.

Are the Goetze rings the same ones used in the nikasil, though? I would imagine.

Yes they are

Thanks again, Nathan.

This was my mistake, turned out i had over filled the oil sump just slightly. I figured it out because two cold starts after that it stopped puffing slightly on cold startup. So i checked the oil and it was right at the full mark. Now it doesn't puff anything on cold startup, oops. And since the very first outing with the car, i've been using the accelerate/decelerate method to break in the rings, which i had used successfully on my 944 rebuild as well. I accelerate WOT to ~5k rpm, the let off the throttle and let the motor decelerate the car to 3krpm then pull up to 5k again and so on.

thanks everyone!!! I just finished reading the thread and have decided to rering my alusils especially since I have broken one of the original oil rings. The engine has about 80K and the cylinders look clean and fairly dull I think I will clean them and scuff them with a scotch brite pad wrapped around a hone or buy the AN-30 paste have not figured that one out yet. Is everyone that rebuilt their engine still happy with the results they have and if not what would you do differently

I'm really happy with my results. My motor runs like a top and hasn't even gone thru 1qt of oil in 1200 miles. It used to go thru like 1qt every 300 miles. I did however also do a full head rebuild.

The way I prepared my cylinders is I had them washed in a parts washer (took of the glaze) and finished them with a few rounds of scotch brite. They looked good as new when finished with fine hone marks from the pads. I also used new Goetze rings ordered here from Pelican. The last thing I can say I did was that I went the aggresive break in technique. Once she first fired up I drove her like I stole her. Do a search and there is alot of debate on this topic.

I have ZERO regrets with my re-ringed alusils.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102291705.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102291721.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1102291739.jpg

It's been widely documented that you can re-ring Alusils. There's also been incidences where it doesn't work too well. Longevity is also an issue - the new rings tend to wear down the cylinders quicker over time. So, you may have a fine running engine after 500 or 1000 miles, but later on down the line, the cylinder linings have disappeared?

Jury is still out - I recommend replating with Nikasil. Anyone have any *long term* mileage on 911s with re-ringed Alusils? (longer than 10,000 miles).

-Wayne

so you can replate alusils with Nikasil and use the same pistons? where can you get it done at?

Wayne, as soon as I get done with my restoration, (Spent a lot of money here!) you will have your answer. I used the scotchbrite method on my rebuild about 5,000 miles. My concept was that I'm doing it for myself and see rebuilding the engine as a long term maintance project.
With 258,000+ miles on the car it's been rebuilt before and I will hopefully have the car for a long time and do it again. I might not get another 100,000 miles on these rings or P&C sets, but hopefully will save the 3K for a while. Again that's me. And as Wayne said the Jury is still out. I will probably buy a P&C set or replate at some point. Just decided to spend that money elsewhere for now.

There was also some bad news for BMW owners with Nikasil cylinders.
Is that still going on or has it been resolved.
There were several others on this board that re-ringed any updates?

500 miles, no oil consumption yet, torque seemed to steadily increase until it's peak of "pull" which i got around 300 miles or so. I'm dropping the motor out to check torques, valves adjust, and fix some leaks in the tranny. So far so good.

That picture get's me everytime. I have to remember to look closely.
How about doing a compression test and leakdown while your at it.
Might be good data for later as this thread ages.

I've broken 5k since the rebuild. No problems so far!

I have half a can of Sunnen AN-30 if anyone wants to buy it.

I would spend the money on re doing the cylinders but these are suposed to be damb good cylinders and knowing they could be i would hate to throw money into an experimeent but i need to get at least 50,000 miles out of them I spent a lot of time in germany an if this stuf was cheaper over there i would start to import cylinders but i think it will take me awhile because i rarely see a porsche

Here's a story about a fellow with re-ringed Alusils that are beginning to wear out after 9,000 miles:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/195483-mileage-re-ringed-alusils.html#post1653676

-Wayne

so what is the alternitave Nikasil? I just broke an oil ring would it be better If I only replaced the broken oil ring ?do you know of where I can get info on Nikasil

Not an expert, but smoking can also be due to valve guides. Not sure of the quantity of oil burned. Also, Wayne re reinged the 3.0l 82SC that was used in the 101 projects book and then sold to Red-beard so under some circumstances it must be acceptable. It is in this thread. You can re ring T-390 alloy (alusill's other name). There are many factors to consider such as condition of your "cores". Also, it is western culture to complain when things do not go well. Such a tendency causes polarization of opinion and necessitatiets that you do as much research on this subject as possible (which you are doing so good for you). I had mine re ringed by a man that I greatly respect, and was advised by another of the same caliber. That with all of the hard work and research done on this board made up my mind. You could always start saving a little money every month for a potential rebuild in 10-50K miles. That way if it never happens you will have a chunck of change to use else ware. ;)
Just my $.02

well I think After reading all this that I would rering and feel good about it BUT If you only had to replace an oil ring (which I broke)or rering the whole engine what would you do I did seperate the pistons and cylinders Due to the wrist pin being so tight

Once you take the piston out to change the oil ring, I believe it is too late.

Ya, I have heard the same. Once the rings have been separated from the cylinder you are supposed to re ring/hone. There are engine builders here that will let you know for sure, though.

Ok, 500 miles on the motor, and it's been out of my car for 2 weeks and obviously is stone cold. Unfortunately, the type of leak tester i have is kind of cheap, and hard to actually get the end of it to seat in the spark plug hole (cannot tighten with a tool). So this means that i could hear a slighty leak coming from the spark thread around the leak tester. I also heard some slightly coming out of the breather meaning it going past the rings (extremely faint). All in all, these are my numbers.
C1: 5-7%
C2: 9-11%
C3: 4-6%
C4: 5-7%
C5: 6-8%
C6: 8-10%