I think one of the problems we have with this idea is that all these products are "polishes" and the an-30 silicon paste is an abrasive suspended in a binder.

Well, even the polishes are just abrasives suspended in a gel. The AN-30 is silicon powder, oil, and surfactant. It's likely that you're right about particle size; I'm sure AN-30 is more abrasive than the 3M material which is likely to have a very fine particle size. The intention here was to establish whether or not we could remove aluminum while leaving the silicon intact. That we can do. I picked the 3M polish because the hardness was correct, and I could get it locally for not alot of money. Since it didn't cut as deeply as I had hoped I don't think that it's the best solution. But I'm now confident that this can be done at home using the AN-30.

When I called Sunnen they said they had forty or so 1 pound containers of AN-30 in stock, so they obviously don't sell much. I've decided to go ahead and order some for myself, as I will be reringing my cylinders when the engine goes back together. I guess I'll be the home-sunnen guinnea pig.:p I still need to drag my own cylinders into work and put them on the profilometer (surface tester) in order to assess before and after.

I hope that whoever knows the old timer will post his contact info, and tell him that there's a sizeable niche market that he could make a living off of.

I'm still mulling over yesterday's results. In some places I saw lots of ring material imbedded in the cylinder wall or stuck in pits, which is to be expected, as well as leftover oil, abrasive, and even a large sulfur particle (fuel maybe?). The ring material seemed to pile up in some places, those may be low spots in the wall that are present due to it's age. As for the pits retaining abrasive, I've decided not to be too concerned. I think that a normal healthy cylinder would not have been so pitted in the first place (but then again I don't want to destroy a normal healthy cylinder for an experiment.) So if we're talking about reringing otherwise good cylinders, then the pits wouldn't be an issue. Also, some of the abrasive was retained but not in pits; it was imbedded in the aluminum. That's a second reason to go ahead and get some AN-30.

The pitting was obvious as dark patches. I didn't actually know what the dark patches were until the microscopy. I'll post a picture.

We should all give Jerry another thanks for being such a good sport with his cylinders.:) Thanks, Jerry!

You wanna go halfsies on the grease?

Sure. I'll order it and send half to you.

FWIW, here's the pitted cylinder. So if they look like this it's probably time for a new set.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1074648076.jpg

Here's another picture of the polished region. All the little white pieces (1-3 micron) are pieces of ring or leftover abrasive. Mostly ring. The long island in top center is a silicon particle.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1074648467.jpg

That one does look like it's ready for the recycling bin. Is this one of yours or the high mileage set from J?
Could you do me a favor and measure the skirt thickness (the part that inserts into the case)? Nothing elaborate needed just a dial caliper if you got one.

No way man!:D I'm gonna eBay the whole set...heck they're worth 10X more than what they were new now that all of you scientific types have oogled them.

I see it now, "Own a piece of history! These GENTLY used, highly sought after, out of production KS cylinders used most recently in the Alusil Redemption Project. Bidding starts at $4k NO Reserve!"

Snowman, Rondinone, anh911, I'll need you guys to start writing PhD after your names....

:D

Rondinone,
Those pics are amazing! I have to say, although the factory surface was definetly smoother, the 3-M polished surface looked pretty darned good from my perspective, especially compared to the worn surface. I think too that using the sunnen formula will probably work a bit better; lets face it the 3M route was on the cheap side, but anyone doing this for purposes other than experimentation would surely get the good stuff. If I remember correctly, Jack is using a grape hone to clean up a cyl too, correct? It'll be interesting to see if it has better luck removing all the embbeded material from the surface. Even from the preliminary analysis it indeed looks as though if the cylinder isn't too bad off, they can be cleaned up and reused...gives us hope anyway. Other have proposed the question, but it still seems to be possible int heory anyway to bore the cylinder out, using the sunnen method of the various stages of honing and lapping to get a surface much lke the original factory surface. Now all we need is a successful iron plating experiment with a contemporary piston like a JE or Shasta! Imagine 98mm KS Alusils with Iron coated JE 9.8:1 pistons....

I'm working on the plating bits. Although I have something different than JEs in mind. Don't ask it's a secret for now, I'll spill it as soon as I get more info.
Jerry, you gotta wait till we buy up all the "trash" alusils and corner the used cylinder market before you ebay those collectors items and drive up the price;)

Does someone want to send me a cylinder (Toronto, Canada) for re-work? I'll take it to the old-timer and see what he uses.

email me if you want to send me one. HARPER 'at' fhwelding.com

It's just a good thing you guys are not obsessive.

Could be worse. We could be obsessive compulsive.

Oops I suddenly felt a compulsive urge to edit my post and correct the spelling.

Oh good, I'm glad you did it before I sent you an email and PM about the spelling.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/gitaar.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/drummer.gif

Got a reply from Bernd Waldhauer, an engineer at KS confirming our findings re: the silicon paste and felt method. Also confirming that 98mm is ok. Quote below:

"Dear Anthony
KS produced for these engines Carrera 3,2 ltr. the ALUSIL liner 88 761 110, and these Alusil can be rehoned and polished with the felt-pads and the silicon paste. In general you could also fit oversize pistons, but we never supplied oversize pistons, the normal way was to replace a liner kit including the piston with rings. So you can remachine aircooled or watercooled liners from ALUSIL, but not NIKASIL, Nickel coated liners ! Your 2. question for remachine the bore size of 95,00 mm to 98,00 mm is possible, but do you have a supplier for oversize pistons ?

Our liners with ALUSIL are running together with pistons with FERROCOAT, the meaning: the complete piston is coated with ferro = iron and a flash of tin. We found out this was a good combination of the silicon crystals (very hard) and the soft iron surface of the piston. "

So the process is confirmed, the fact that KS never supplied oversize is confirmed and the overbore is confirmed but I'm still working on the coating/plating process.

Thanks Bernd
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/pray.gif

Bernd is very busy these days!
He was the one that replied to my inquiry!
He now answered my second set of questions in response to you.
BTW, did you invite him to join the discussion?
Bernd da man!
Anthony, you da man too!

HIGH FIVE SLAP WAVY!

That was the worn-out cylinder from Jerry. Mine have 115k and are pretty homogeneous from top to bottom; they're a nice grey matte finish.

>Snowman, Rondinone, anh911, I'll need you guys to start >writing PhD after your names....

I already do, thanks. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat5.gif

I called Sunnen today and ordered the AN-30. The rep asked what I was going to do with it and I told her I was rebuilding an alusil Porsche engine. She said, "yes, this is what you need." She didn't express any surprise at all that I was going to do it at home.

And here's the KS guy telling us we can use the paste and felt to restore the cylinder like it's no big deal. In retrospect it all seems obvious. Why did nobody try this before?

So when the AN-30 arrives, I'm basically going to polish my six cylinders the same way I polished the tester. I'd like some sort of feedback, so I'm going to run my cylinders through the surface analyzer before and after. When I'm satisfied, the new rings will go in.

I'm pretty confident after the 3M test that I won't rip up the cylinder surface. The only question will be whether or not I remove enough material to allow the new rings to break in. I really hope this works!

And snowman, when you get done with your grape hone send that cylinder on to me and we'll run it through the mill.

¡Viva la revolución! http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/2ar15.gif

I've been wondering about that too. I worked at several Porsche shops in the 80&90s and never heard anything about this process. All the machine shops told us to toss the alusils. Even the old Mercedes Sl motors that used Alusil were considered throwaways. I think part of the mystery is that KS doesn't do any aftermarket sales, its all OEM, so product support seems limited to very high production users like the auto mfgs. If it wasn't for the internet I doubt it would have been found.

Not knocking KS, they have been very helpful. Just MHO

You know there's a book in here: Rebuilding Techniques for Engines using non-traditional materials.... ;)

We've just done somebody's doctoral dissertation for them.

Hey you guys, did I mention that Alusil cylinders can be reused?

How long before the Prozac and Paxil distributors start trolling for customers?

LOL, Jim!
Come on up and get yer steak dinner, you cheep bastard.
:D

I'm glad somebody understands me. Still thinking about those seats. Perhaps a road trip the weekend after this next one.

WOW, this discussion went on longer than i thought. You guys busted out almost as much scientific data as the eram discussion brought every engineer from the cracks in the wall. My cylinders were shipped out today, i'll post a pic of what the walls look like. (they are redone KS cylinders)

Viva la revolucion`http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/2ar15.gif

Let us know who did the work when you post the pics.
(what's wrong with brown??)

Did you get my address? Haven't heard from you yet.

Sorry for the delay in shipping these cylinders out guys. I left for the east coast last week and just returned late Saturday evening. Jack, I sent you an email, I'll finally get that cylinder off to you tomorrow.

PBH, you have mail.

The AN-30 arrived today. I'm going to take one of my jugs into work tomorrow and get a baseline on the profilometer. I'll probably polish it tomorrow night. Woo hoo!

It's more abrasive than the 3M polish, as I can feel the grittyness with my fingers. It will definately cut deeper.

It says "please see instructions included with Sunnen felt set" on the can. Of course.

ha ha ha, what are the odds? But surely we have enough documentation on this process by now?

Can't wait to see the before and after shots.

whoa, this is really getting good! I can hardly wait for the results...if nothing else, it gives al the Alusil believers out there more to base their faith upon...:-) ANH911...any word on the re-plated pistons? just think...3.2l Alusils!

R/
Dustin

haven't had a chance to talk to any platers yet. I'll try tomorrow.

Still no time to talk to the platers. Been a busy week. But regarding the stock "ferrocoat" that KS uses: it's actually iron and tin plating. The skirt is done with iron and the rest of the piston is plated with tin to prevent corrosive action between the aluminum and iron. They plate everything, ring grooves, pin bore etc.

I've polished two cylinders with the AN-30 so far. This time I used a turtlewax miracle towel cut and wrapped around my honing stones. First I polished for two minutes at 150 rpm, 0.5-1 stroke per second. The profilometer recorded a texture about 1/2 as rough as the factory. So I polished it for 3 minutes more, and this is the result:

Cylinder #3, not yet polished:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075342012.jpg

Cylinder #2, polished:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075342103.jpg

Cylinders 2 & 3 looked roughly the same before I started. Cylinder 1 looks just like cylinder 2. When I run my fingernail down it, it feels like a real fine chalkboard. The shiny area around bdc could probably be used as a guide. It started out shiny and got progressively duller. It's still a bit more shiny than the rest, but I suspect it's pretty worn compared to the rest of the cylinder.

I measured the ring gap before and after polishing, and it increased by ~0.001", which increased the bore by 0.001/6.28 = 0.00016 ". That's about 4 microns. I hope I didn't overdo it.

I'll drag cylinder 1 back to work tomorrow and get another reading.

From what I've been told about this process you might have overdone it. I think my guy does them for about 30 sec. I'll get a picture of mine posted in a few days. Work/family are seriously interfering wiht this thread.

I recieved a package from Bernd W. on Friday.
It was mailed from the "Netherlands".
It contained a hard copy of the "Reconditioning Aluminum Blocks" pamphlet. (A link to a PDF is posted here on page 4.)
He also sent some cylinder pictures. (microscope)

I also re-read the Sunnen directions on page 7.
There is also a link to Sunnen there which has their cataloge with their "portable hone" the portable hone is described as one option in the directions.

The KS describes lapping for 60 seconds with 15 strokes.
(This is for the final finish after 2-3 steps of honing oversized.)
Not necessarily the same as reconditioning as is being attempted here.

Sunnen directions is really the final process as well and stated 1-1/2 minutes with the portable hone equipt with the felt pads.

With the automatic machine it is set to shut off in about 2 minutes.

I just wanted to condense that info here.

I also noticed something that is probably a long shot.
KS does/or did supply oversized pistons for the 928. (Reconditioning pamphlet)
The diameter is 95mm and 95.5mm for oversized.
928S is 97mm and 97.5mm for oversized.

I did a few searches yesterday for some spacifications on the 928 to hopefully see a set of pistons and fins all the dimensions.

The only thing I found was set of 4 on e-bay (4 doesn't make sence)
Anyway they were flat top pistons.
Anyone know anything about the 928 pistons please speak up.
I know this is a long shot, but worth a look.
I would think it's possible that a set of oversized 928 pistons or standard or oversized 928S pistons might just work.

One thing I did find is that there seems to be a lot less info out there on the watercooled p-cars than 911's.







928S is listed

After thinking it over, I'm not too concerned about the amount of time spent polishing. The sunnen hone shown in their catalog is really robust unlike my little spring loaded junker. It likely applies much more pressure, and can do the deed in less time. I'm sure my felt is softer also.

Doubters behold, for I have provided proof. These are profilometer readings of my number 2 cylinder before and after polishing with AN-30.

Worn areas:

Note the large difference in X and Y axes. The surface isn't really this rough.

These are two different areas.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075417451.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075417466.jpg

Polished:

This is near the top of the cylinder. The plateaus are silicon particles sticking out of the aluminum wall. Remember the X axis is compressed. The particles are actually much wider.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075417598.jpg

This is the shiny area at BDC after polishing. Not as rough as above, but the particles are still evident. Most importantly, it's not a mirror finish any longer.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075417650.jpg

For comparison, here's the factory finish before any polishing was done:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075417685.jpg

The depth between particles for the factory finish, and most of the polished areas are about 10 microns.

FYI, these cylinders had 115k before teardown. I'm feeling more confident that this is going to work.

Excelent info as always Rondinone!

Im still anixously awaiting the results of any etching and or grape honeing procedures.

Great work, excellent post as always. I was looking for some more info and ran across these pics. They show the hone w/felt pads and an30. They appear to be brushing the silicon paste onto the cylinder wall, not applying it to the hone. I don't recall reading that anywhere in the docs that we have but I'll go back and review.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1075441758.jpg

FYI I have seen the Sunnin felt pads. They are VERY robust pads. NOTHING WIMPY about them. No way can any home brew stuff come close to the pressure these pads must apply. Think about a soft STONE hone rather than anything felt, ie a very robust felt pad, fully packed to the brim with honing material, and then pushed until the stone (silicone paste) oozes out due to pressure during honing.

But to put this in perspective, no significant material is removed during this process, eg no more than one or two tenths of a thousandth of an inch for up to several minutes of honing.

This also consistant with some very trick plateau honing stuff I have seen for the Sunnin hone. EG brushes, nylon brushes, so stiff you could polish stainless with them, combined with some sort of soft stone material.

All this is escencially the same as the silicone grape (dingle ball) hones in practice in my opinion. In other words everyone has finally DISCOVERED plateau honing and invented their own way to do it, better or differen't than the other guy.

anh911, using the brush is there in the documents I pointed to yesterday, somewhere.

Rondineone, just to get into perspective on your scales can you convert 500 microns to something I can draw a comparison to?
Please excuse my ignorance, I'm not from a remote backwards area, but I have no way to measure that small and asside from the ocassional discussion like this I don't use it.

In other words I know it's smaller than a "nat's ass".
How many microns in a inch or mm?

Thanks for all the hard work!

Sorry. I know most people are used to inches, but we conduct our work only in metrics.

Micron is short for micrometer. One micron is one millionth of a meter, or one thousandth of a millimeter, or approximately the size of a bacterium. Three of these scans were 0.5 mm long, one was 0.7 and the factory one was 0.2 mm. The vertical axis is -10 to 10 microns, which is just under one thousandth of an inch (25.4 microns per 0.001 inch). It seems like that's a short distance to check, but there's really alot of information present. These scans are conducted by dragging a fine needle across the surface, so a profile represents a short straight line on the cylinder wall. Since the X and Y axes are different scales, if you want to visualize what the surface really looks like you would have to stretch out the horizontal axis by a factor of 25, i.e. the particles are 25x wider than they look here.

I applied the AN-30 to the cylinder wall like they suggest.

Did you get that cylinder yet Jack?

Unfortunately he hasn't yet.:(

Although I promised to send Jack and Paul a cylinder, I have been absolutely swamped. I will make an effort to get them both out either today or Monday at the latest.

Sorry for the delay all....

Thanks for the conversion.
It was about what I expected, but just wasn't sure.
In the pictures that KS sent with the book (Simular to yours with the microscope) Bernd identified a scratch. It's hard to tell if it was a tooling mark from a hone or an imperfection.

When looking at your microscope pictures how does that scale compaire?
Thanks again.

78-89 3.3 turbos had 97mm pistons, but I think they were just for Nikasil. would they be coated or plated? I wonder what compression they would create with the short stroke SC crank?


I saw a set of 993 pistons on e-bay for +-400 maybe.
Those are 100 mm. That would be too big?

The turbo pistons don't have the correct coating but are too low compression to be of use to us unless you are converting to forced induction.

From what Bernd told me the 100mm (as used) are too big, he said the cylinders would go out of round quickly once the bore got that big (the walls would be too thin). That's one of the reasons the 3.6 has larger head bolt spacing.