![]() |
|
|
|
|
![]() |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Rate Thread |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
![]()
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
|
I think 250 is quite possible, maybe a bit conservative for the mods you listed.
See thread: http://www.dorkiphus.com/porsche/viewtopic.php?t=369 Ted has a stock Euro 3.2 engine (stock cams, stock euro CR) stock headers, no cat and B&B muffler and an Autothority chip. He pulled 204 at the wheels (~240 flywheel) on the dyno over the summer. I drove Richards Richards stock US 3.2 for a while and the only mods he had were the webcam 20/21 grind cams. The thing screamed right past redline, but the lower end was a little lacking for my taste. The 20/21 cams felt like they'd pull right past the redline if the limiter would let it. I'd personally would look for a cam that would offer a little more low end grunt and start tapering off around 6K. Maybe the 964 grind has this characteristic, but I have no experience nor knowledge about the 964 grind other than it's a little less aggressive then the 20/21. With the higher CR of the Euro P's, you'll gain a little more torque throughout the RPM range, so the 20/21 may be a good choice. Hopefully others will chime in......
__________________
Charlie Stylianos 1982 SC Targa www.Dorkiphus.com - (The Land of the NoVA/DC/MD Porschephiles) |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
|
All of those mods sound good, you may want to include in that list to upgrade you rod bolts to arp or raceware. This way you'll be able to raise the rev ceiling and rev the piss out of her, taking advantage of the cam's later torque curve tendencies.
__________________
2007 Mazda 3 hatch 1972 Porsche 914 roller with plenty of holes to fix ![]() |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Thanks guys, I was hoping that combination would be fruitful. 1fast, I was also planning on doing the rod bolts when I changed the pistons. The problem with raising the rev limit is that Motronic no longer controls the motor much past 6500 since there are no values in the table above 6500 rpm, it essentially defaults to WOT mode. I may also go with 98mm P&C's with 10.2:1 pistons while I am at it.
Ultimately I would like to get into throttle bodies, twin plugs and aftermarket engine management, to get her up to around 300hp, but I want to do it at a reasonable pace. |
||
![]() |
|
Author of "101 Projects"
|
I'm not a huge fan of modifying the stock Motronic unit to work with a new combination. You really need hours of dyno time to get it right, and then, if you don't, your engine will detonate and destroy itself. Mods on a 3.2 should be done with something like a TEC-3 engine management system, in the ideal case...
-Wayne
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of: 101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 • How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines • 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997 • SPEED READ: Porsche 911 Check out our new site: Dempsey Motorsports |
||
![]() |
|
Hilbilly Deluxe
|
Quote:
North of 6500 rpm, you will either be WOT/WFO, or lifting to shift. I can't think of a time you would be at part throttle over 6500 rpm. Even if you were at part throttle, I don't see how having Motronic in WOT mode would hurt anything. Please explain. Tom |
||
![]() |
|
![]() |
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Wayne, I would agree.
However, I am trying to incrimentally build the motor to the greatest extent possible to ease the impact on my pocketbook. I may forgo the P&C's and just add the cam for now, if I can do so without interference. Ideally, I would like to build a high comp 3.4, with twin plugs, ported heads, 3-angle valve job, hotter cam (GE-60 or 20/21) TWM throttle bodies and some form of aftermarket engine management, but it is the TB's and engine management that end up costing the most dough all at once. Charlie, do you know if Richard had to do any valve train mods or alter the timing to avoid any interference? Thanks and keep it coming! |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Tom, LOL.
You are right to assume that I would be at WOT above 6500 rpm, the problem becomes that if you raise the rev limit to around 7500-8k, you now have a larger range of engine speeds that are not being accurately controlled. WOT throttle needs at 6500 are not the same as those at 7500 or 8k. You may need to back off the timing a little more and deliver more fuel, which may end up hurting your power at 6500 leaving you with a 'hole' in your power band and possibly lowering your ultimate power peak which might only come at 7200 rpm. Not to mention the fact that at those engine speeds you want to have the most control over the motor, not the least. Also, I don't know if the rev limiter in the stock motronic can be set that high. Steve W would have to chime in on this one. . . |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
|
Quote:
My guess is you should be fine as the 20/21 cams have mild/moderate lift and overlap in comparsion to some of the wilder cams (s, e, etc), but the necessary checks are always a must before the first crank.
__________________
Charlie Stylianos 1982 SC Targa www.Dorkiphus.com - (The Land of the NoVA/DC/MD Porschephiles) |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Charlie, thanks that is good to know. I may just stick with the stock pistons with the cam as a first step, then graduate to larger P&C's with higher compression and appropriate valve relief.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 8,091
|
Quote:
-Chris
__________________
'80 911 Nogaro blue Phoenix! '07 BMW 328i Coupe http://members.rennlist.org/messinwith911s/ |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Very interesting Chris . . .
|
||
![]() |
|
![]() |
Registered User
|
If you did go stand alone, it would work with the carrera components you have (intake, fuel injectors but a lot of the sensor would have to be switched to something else). Then the switch to throttle stacks would entail some program tweeking with the standalone. After that enjoy yourself.
__________________
2007 Mazda 3 hatch 1972 Porsche 914 roller with plenty of holes to fix ![]() |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
Ultimately, that is my goal, but the price of admission to TB's and aftermarket engine management is MUCHO bucks. However, they are both necessary if I want 300 N.A. hp out of this motor.
|
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
|
Quote:
Also to answer Roamer's question, the max rpm limit that can be set is 10,200, essentially no limit. |
||
![]() |
|
Author of "101 Projects"
|
Sounds like a lot of work - I'm a big fan of the TEC-3 which gives you much, much better control than a modified system from the 1980s...
-Wayne
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of: 101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 • How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines • 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997 • SPEED READ: Porsche 911 Check out our new site: Dempsey Motorsports |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 223
|
I would agree Wayne, especially when you consider that some aftermarket engine management systems can be had for the cost of twin plugging a stock motronic ignition. However, I have been thinking about using Euro compression (10.1-10.3:1) with the 98mm pistons to forgo the need for twin plugs. The difference in hp with the lower compression is negligible. In this case, a completely re-mapped Motronic may be the answer.
Thanks Steve. |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 8,091
|
Quote:
For the minor mods Roamer was talking about in his original post, a new Motronic chip is a better value IMO. Obviously, for his dream system with throttle bodies the aftermarket EFI is the way to go. -Chris
__________________
'80 911 Nogaro blue Phoenix! '07 BMW 328i Coupe http://members.rennlist.org/messinwith911s/ |
||
![]() |
|
Registered User
|
Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages - really depends on the extent of your mods, what you are trying to control or what additional features you want. Bottom line is that they both do the same thing in controlling fuel and ignition. Reprogramming the Motronic is very much like programming a Tec3 or Motec ect in that the success depends on the skills of the programmer. Understanding and recoding Motronics though by an individual for his one off motor is not a job for a first timer though because both Bosch and Porsche keep all their information a very closely guarded secret, and that is I suppose where aftermarket management systems have their advantage. Wayne is right about this. God know how many hundreds of hours I spent deciphering their codes. Although Chris, Thomas Owen, and I worked together with Marc Skarshinski to develop a freeware Motronic editing program, it's functions and the maps it can edit are still limited. Bernd Andritzky, who I work with on the 911 chips, and has been programming the Motronics controlled vehicles for BMW for the last 7 years, tells me about how Bosch is very secretive to BMW about of the software and coding used in their boxes, so BMW likewise is very secretive to Bosch about what they do with the software.
Motronic though, once understood, has the advantage in that it has a baseline of a multitude of data maps and calibration points that have already been worked out by the factory - warm up tables, deceleration fuel cutoffs, high temp knock protection function, ect. Todd Knighton of Promotive Engineering, one of the original Motronics hackers actually favors Motronics very much for a lot of his turbo systems due to the flexibility avalable by the system. Here's a couple of links from his forum: http://pub12.ezboard.com/fprotomotiveasktheexpert.showMessage?topicID=168.t opic http://pub12.ezboard.com/fprotomotiveasktheexpert.showMessage?topicID=58.to pic |
||
![]() |
|
Author of "101 Projects"
|
Quote:
-Wayne
__________________
Wayne R. Dempsey, Founder, Pelican Parts Inc., and Author of: 101 Projects for Your BMW 3-Series • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 911 • How to Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines • 101 Projects for Your Porsche Boxster & Cayman • 101 Projects for Your Porsche 996 / 997 • SPEED READ: Porsche 911 Check out our new site: Dempsey Motorsports |
||
![]() |
|
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
Rate This Thread | |
|