2.7rs Frozen solid?
 

This is a 0 mile 2.7 rebuilt with 9.8 cr JE pistons, timeserted case, new chains, bearings, etc. etc... engine was built by long time engine builder approx 10 months ago, sold to another pelicanite, then to me still 0 miles. cams have been timed, when I whent to rotate engine (by the crank) I noticed that engine was hard to turn even with plugs out, it did get a little bit easier after rotating it 5 or 6 times by hand, but still pretty hard. ( I have never turned over a engine by hand before) after installing in car 2 weeks later starter could not turn over, took out plugs, and still could not turn over, tried to push car while in gear (no plugs) and was unable to.
sprayed a little WD 40 in each plug hole, jacked one side of car up and tried to turn wheel in gear with jack handle with no luck.
I am 99.9% sure that there is no loose bolts/nuts that is causing a mechanical bind. does anyone have a suggestion before I have to tear down top end??? (Please note I am NOT implicating any wrong doing on either of the two previous owners):confused:

Struck a chord with me this weekend. I doubt this is your problem but.... this weekend is finally reinstalled the clutch on my 2.2 rebuild. I was having trouble mating the tranny so decided to rotate the crank over. Wouldn't move. You know that sinking feeling! I hade been meticulously turning it over at every stage to ensure a smooth installation. I discovered the star head cap bolts going through the clutch housing and flywheel were catching on the rear face on the crankcase. I couldn't work out why since these were the same bolts I thought I had taken out when I took it apart. Still don't know why they protrude so much. Still don't know why it didn't happen before. It is a clutch assy from a 2.7 but that should not have made a difference as far as I could see.
Anyway, You never know when a problem shared is a solution offered!

stevef
my car will still roll in neutral, and engage in gear, so I'm not sure if that is my problem, but worth checking into...thanks
glenn

Oh dear...is this the engine I think it is? Did I hear something about loose perimeter nuts on this one?

I'd detach the chains and back off all the rockers or just pull them, and try turning the cams by hand. If you're lucky, the cams are binding and you can investigate from there. If they are binding, loosen the cam tower hardware and knock the towers loose from the heads with a mallet and see if that frees up the cams. If so, maybe a simple re-torque (after re-sealing the towers to the heads) might work. "Lucky" being a comparative term as this will involve machine work if the head and cam towers are not flat and a re-torque doesn't solve the problem.

If you're not so lucky and the cams turn freely in the torqued cam carriers, but the engine is still not turning freely, then crank is probably binding. After you've disengaged the cams from the crank, you can turn the crank and see if it is hard to turn. If so, the case might have been torqued incorrectly. More likely is that the case was twisted a few thousandths but the builder did not have the main bearing bores cleaned up - now the new bearings are binding up the crank. If this is the problem, you've got a lot of work to do. The case would need to be measured out and cleaned up, and if it was me, I'd get a brand new set of main bearings. Then you'll have to clean and reassemble it all again. I guess one other possibility is that the crank isn't straight.

Let me know if you need some help with this in-person - not sure where you stand on engine work DIY but I'm happy to swing by some weekend.

A little late now, but you should not have forced the engine to rotate. There's something causing it to bind. Forcing it by push starting only encourages bent parts.

Remove the valve covers and back off the valve adjusters on each rocker arm, then try rotating the engine by hand (flex handle and socket). If it still binds, I'd suggest removing the engine, then methodically remove the clutch, then the heads until you discover the problem.

Let us know what you discover.

Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

Thanks 911pcars.. we did stop short of pulling the car behind another an poping the clutch, again only tried to push the car in gear unsuccessfully, so at this point the eng has not turned but you are correct somthing is causing this and will have to be investigated...thanks

i think dtw has it nailed. crank binding in the mains. typical 2.7. you gotta do the works on the case, or else that's what happens.

J.W.W. I'm trying to absorb any and all info... The motor was built by someone else and is SUPPOSED to have a std / std crank, all new bearings, timeserts on unpulled stud case, updated oil pump, oil bypass mod. do not know if it was shuffle pinned or not. is there other items that should be performed?

all 2.7 cases NEED to be align honed to get the main bearing bores round again, and in a straight line. if this is not done, the crank usually binds. symptoms are: real hard to get it to turn at first, then after you get it turning, it's easier. stop for a moment and it binds up again. also the case needs to have case savers installed for the head studs, timeserts installed for the 8mm studs along the intermediate shaft line, cylinder bases on the case trued on a mill, as the center one is usually lower than the outers, and the contact surface get all worn out and irregular, causing oil leaks under the cylinder and loose heads fairly soon.

The most important thing that's missing from what you listed is key for the mag cased engines, especially the 2.7s. The main bore must be measured for straightness/roundness. An offset bore can be detected which is the telltale of a case that's been twisting around the crank (walking, which is what shuffle-pinning is designed to stop).

I've had two mag cases redone now. One was out of round, which means the main bearings wore out and the crank began to pound the case oblong/out of round. My other one was round but offset, showing that the case had twisted. In both cases I got lucky and the total movement was limited to 0.001". A very light align-bore plunge fixed things up just fine, and I was able to run standard bearings in both cases.

Tim just had an example of a case that was so twisted (0.006"), it could not be repaired without expensive surgery, involving facing down both mating surfaces of the case halves and then reboring the mains. He found another good case instead.

If your case was tweaked and it was just slapped back together with new bearings, the bearings will bind up the crank where the case is twisted. That's why I would recommend replacing them if you find out that the case/crank is the problem. They've had serious stresses applied to them that they weren't designed for.

Another possibility is that your rings froze up in the bores, but I'm having trouble thinking that's the problem - the time frame you discussed isn't enough time for brand-new rings with at least a little bit of lube to become completely frozen.

Do you guys think it's possible/realistic for someone to rebuild their engine and not EVER try to rotate the crank until the wheels are on the ground? I guess it's possible if you're just putting it together to get rid of it.

Maybe that's the answer.

Sherwood

i'm sure they rotate it, however tight, to get the P+Cs on, etc, they just don't care or realize there's a problem, hoping the bearings will loosen up after it runs.

dtw, i listed that in the first sentence.

Yeah JW - you posted while I was writing my post. I was talking about Glenn. He listed all the stuff that the builder did, but he never said that the main bore was checked.

Sherwood - yeah, what JW said. This also seems to have tightened up a bit more after going outdoors. That said - I'm open to suggestions as to what you think is wrong - I sure hope Glenn doesn't have to split the case. I'm going to leave it up to Glenn to go into particulars since it's his engine, but there were other things about this engine that suggested it might have had a half-assed rebuild.

Morning guys, again thanks for the input.. in a brief history this eng. was built last june, and offered for sale on PP, I did not have funds at that time and another pelicanite purchased the eng., his plans changed and he sold it to me. It was on a pallet with all VISABLE opening's having shop towels in them covered with tape, again this is a 0 mile rebuild. I received eng in Aug. and put it at my work shop indoors, covered with tarp till thanksgiving when I made final payment to prev. owner. eng was then taken to my house (NO garage) were it spent the next 2 months being installed into my 914 christmas, weather, and family issues delayed installation, but again eng. was always covered.when I finally looked at the bot. of the eng for the first time I found that exh. ports were not covered (poss. rodent home??? although saw no signs of any) also found 2 exh studs missing, 1stud broken just below case, with a smaller stud drilled and tapped between broke stud and exh opening??? also found oil pump access plate to have diff. length studs and two that I could remove with my fingers (this could have been by the second owner not tightening them up after inspecting pump?) and also could see some assembly oil sepage at case just behind the same plate. (I stuck a 13mm 8" wrench on the 2 thru case bolts under oil pump and was able to turn them a good half turn with very little pressure - maybe 8-10 pounds) this caused me to question what else might not be tight. Sherwood questioned why eng was not turned over till wheels were on ground (NO offense taken) from my end I probally should have checked this when purchased in hindsight but again this was a 0 mile eng. the builder (who I will not name at this time) has built many eng. and I am sure he had to turn it over durring assembly in timming cams and am sure if it was binding at that time he would have investigated, also I turned it over to tdc to install dist. and felt that it was quite tight but again I have never turned an eng over before and did not have anything to compare it to. as this eng. has been in three seperate hands I can not pass the blame on to anyone but myself and will try to sort this out best I can (with the support of PP) also looking thru openings that I could timming chains are new, valves and guides are new, and all inside visibly looked good, suprisingly case was oily and dirty on outside but I Know this is a lower end rebuild (not ANDIAL) Again thanks for your support / input... Sincerely Glenn

Also I do not know if the case was align bored, but being a lower end rebuild I am guessing that it probally not part of the rebuild, if so I guess the old saying that you get what you pay for.

How many case bolts were loose? If I were re-assembling and found a tight crank I might loosen of the case bolts to see if it was a twisted case. Is it possible that the case was not torqued when you got it?

I didn't know through-bolts were loose - I thought it was just perimeter bolts. Dirty case makes me think that it never hit the machine shop for inspection - first thing my shop does is slap the case in the dishwasher. This engine gets scarier by the minute.

This is my opinion - and only my opinion - but if this were my engine, at this point, I'd tear the entire thing apart and redo it myself. I'd charge the builder for any required machine work and replacement gaskets.

Dave, I'm afraid you are correct. As much as I would love for someone to tell me to "Remove the Shipping Pin" and all will be well, I realize without tearing down the eng. it will not fix itself! As far as blame I am not a lawyer but it would turn into a he said / she said as problems could be from anyone including me. car has been down for almost 3 years... a couple of more months is a small percentage even if it does kick me in the butt! I still try to live by a statement I herd once... If a doctor tells you your child has cancer that is a problem, If money can fix it it is only an inconvienence.

Glenn,
as a brother of a cancer survior that saying is SOO true. with the addition "or you have insurance"

I think dave's right.. it's best to tear it all down and get it done right.. this motor scares me.

I wonder if Speedwerks would rent you space to build the motor?

Glen,
My comment was not a slam directed at you. It was a response (not a slam either) to those who suspect the crankcase wasn't line-bored and thus the possible crank rotation issue. Way before the engine reaches the engine compartment, the builder (not you) would have/should have rotated the engine for any number of assembly steps and noticed something was amiss. Or maybe it was assembled by the numbers and assumed all would be well. Or by the sound of your add'l description (missing studs, etc.), the builder just slapped this together. Who knows? There's no competency requirement for any DIY project. It's up to the individual.

At any rate. I think the consensus is that the engine should come apart. If the correct pieces are in place, then it might only take a more conscientious attention to assembly; possibly some machine work.

When I bought my "rebuilt" 2.5, I was so skeptical of it's contents (real RS pistons/cyls?), I made purchase contingent upon a partial teardown to verify it had the correct parts. Even after confirming that and taking it home, I discovered there were many other things not done to the engine. I ended up rebuilding it again, but not after I went through the "while I'm in there" scenario we all go through (that's another story).

There are many good minds on this board. Let them talk you through this. The add'l cash outlay may not be catastrophic. If you should decide to do the work yourself, you'll be sure everything is done.

Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars