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jpnovak's Avatar
 
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piston top ceramic coatings

Who can tell me information about ceramic piston coatings? Any idea what materials are used to ceramic coat piston tops?

Do they work?

Are they stable or do they flake off?

ANy and all information would be great. Wayne's book mentions them briefly but no specifics.

Thanks
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Old 06-19-2004, 12:51 PM
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Ive used coatings on my headers (Jet Hot)

and plan on expanding a bit more when I make my 3.2 a turbo engine

One site posts some data, to back up the claims

look here
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Old 06-19-2004, 03:08 PM
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Also, this is usually a hotly debated topic..

Porsche does in fact use coatings on some of its production engines.... oddly just the exhaust ports...not anything within the combustion chamber...I was told that the thermal barrier in the combustion chamber played havoc with combustion temps.

I for one cant see anything wrong with keeping any heat from being absorbed by the piston dome , or cylinder head. Kinda like everytime that exhaust valve opens its like a big flush.. all the heat goes out!!

Allthough wierd things may happen if all that heat isnt allowed into the engine, will will the heads seal properly?

I wish there was more empirical data to support the claims of the manufacturers...

Coating the pistons,valves,head, header probably can be done fo about $1000. Thats a small percentage of the cost of a A+ rebuild..

My 911 project is almost done. When I get it fired up, Im going to pull the 3.2 from my 914 and build it into a turbo engine, and I will be using coatings on most everything.
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Old 06-19-2004, 04:52 PM
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It has been used for yrs in the HOT ROD Diesel trucks .....I have them in mine and the next time I pull my 2.7 dwn I can assure you they will be there.
Now some one from the aircraft ind. will pipe up and say "they never do it" but remember the aircraft recips have not changed in 30-50 yrs because it takes a truck load of paper work to do so they call them ADs (aircraft directives.) Went thrue this on an other thread a while back.
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Old 06-19-2004, 07:21 PM
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Great information. Tim, Do they typically coat valves, heads and pistons? Seams like a good thing to get all that heat out of the engine.


I wonder if anyone has any formulas. Lets just say someone (Ok me) has access to CVD and e-beam equipment at work. Could I coat my own? Ceramics are just oxide coatings and easier to grown than thin-films.
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Old 06-19-2004, 08:13 PM
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Some m/c racers seem to like this technology. I'll ask around and find out the pros and cons from their point of view.
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Old 06-19-2004, 08:36 PM
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Cool

I believe the Robert Yates Racing, (NASCAR) uses a coated piston crown and combustion chamber surface in the head.

Good luck,
David Duffield
Old 06-20-2004, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
I wonder if anyone has any formulas.
I bet the companies that apply these coatings keep the formulations and compositions close to the chest..

These guys do some work for some Busch North guys.. and probably the the big boys also (NASCAR)....
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:03 PM
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I found many references to some spray on coatings. Most of these are for exhaust systems. They are all some type of metal oxide. HMM real original explanation. I guess I need to do a patent search to see if I can dig anything up.

One site mentioned coating fo piston tops, valves and valve springs with a heat resistant coating. They claimed 8% gain in fuel efficiency and 5% HP. I guess I would be more interested in wear and longevity figures.
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Old 06-21-2004, 08:20 AM
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It was my understanding that the ceramic coatings are best used with high compression, forced induction engines. They guard against damage that can be caused by detonation, and can give your engine some additional life when you abuse it by adding too much boost. Not sure, but I think Stephen Kaspar has some more information on the ceramic coatings that he put on his Monster 993 engine...

-Wayne
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Old 06-21-2004, 08:45 AM
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I have them in my diesel truck as a extra fire wall.
These make these as I understand it by somehow shooting on as like in a 400 mi an hr storm.
anyhow, IT IS NOT out of a spray can.
If you need a vender let me know I have a couple
Old 06-21-2004, 04:21 PM
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These thermal barrier oxide coatings (yttria-stabilised zirconia) are commonly used in diesel engines for piston tops, valve heads etc. They can be applied by thermal spraying techniques such as plasma spraying or high-velocity oxy-fuel (HVOF) spraying. A web search should throw up some suppliers, but I remember names like Sulzer Metco .

These are very specialised processes, but the applications are well proven.

LeRoux
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Old 07-06-2004, 04:46 AM
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Yttrium based. HMM now the wheels are turing. thanks for the infomation.

I have found several spray coatings for ceramic heat sheilds for exhaust use. They are not too expensive and may be worth a try. I don't know if I am ready to try my own interanal coatings. I do have access to plasma systems so it might be possible.

I think the idea to check the diesel engines is a good idea.
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Old 07-06-2004, 06:42 AM
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Try this web site: http://www.swaintech.com
Old 07-06-2004, 07:56 AM
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You can also try here: http://www.e-myceramic.com/procede1.htm
Old 07-06-2004, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jpnovak
I don't know if I am ready to try my own interanal coatings. I do have access to plasma systems so it might be possible.
As they say just before performing a public stunt manoever:

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME !!

Very specialised equipment is used for these processes, well outside the scope of the home user. How would you like a $ 2m vacuum plasma spray system in your workshop?

LeRoux
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Old 07-07-2004, 06:33 AM
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LeRoux, I work in a small high tech materials firm. We have a vacuum plasma system along with lots of other similar instrumentation. I'm armed and not afraid to use it. Growing thin-films is easy with the right equipment. I originally wanted to know what film to grow.

You are right, I will not try it at home. I don't think the system will fit in the car.
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Old 07-07-2004, 08:20 AM
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jp

It sounds like you have everything you need to take a stab at it! There are tons of literature on different coatings materials and longterm tests on diesel engines. I do not recall any specific data on gasoline engines, but this was not the focus of our work at the time. I also once worked at a materials R&D lab where we had a programme to develop some applications using HVOF and air plasma spray.

Fun stuff. Let us know how your trials work out.

LeRoux
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Old 07-08-2004, 12:43 AM
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This makes sense in a Diesel engine since the engine basically runs on detonation. I wonder if it might have adverse effects in a gasoline engine buy elevating the temp of the exposed surface of the piston. The piston would stay cooler but the fuel air mixture will be exposed to hot ceramic with carbon deposits on it. Might contribute to detonation.

-Andy
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Old 07-08-2004, 08:07 PM
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