Building an engine with no car (dumb idea?)
 

I have a nice running SC Targa. It currently doesn't seem to need anything, aside from some cosmetic stuff.

I am considering adding a Coupe, but didn't want to spend a bunch on it - something I can turn into a GruppeB-mobile.

I am considering buying an engine (with no car attached) and rebuilding it using Wayne's book. Mostly I'm looking for a nice learning experience. When it's done, I'll find some ebay (or Pelican) roller coupe and install it. I doubt I will be building a race car, so performance mods won't be a consideration.

This would give me the best of all worlds:

1. I would learn (and can apply it to my SC when it's time)
2. I wouldn't have to take my SC offline
3. I would be assured of a decent running engine at least when I find a roller.
4. I don't have to jockey a non-running car around in the driveway.


What should I consider here?

How good/bad an idea is this?

What kind of costs am I looking at? (Not factoring in the roller).

I doubt the roller would be another SC...either a mid year S or (ideally) a pre-73 car. What won't fit into an early car?

I am planning to buy a core rebuilder for my project. It has a perfectly good running 3.0. I don't want to waste driving time while I learn and build my 3.2SS. It will probably take me a year to complete but that's nothing compared to the time the project car has taken.

I say go for it. This way you will have a spare engine if anything goes wrong on teh targa.

I would buy the car and engine as one. Find a cheap garage to put the car in while you rebuild the engine. It's cheaper to buy the whole (look for a salvage car since you plan to track it) than to buy the parts seperately and put them together.

I did the core approach. I never lost use of the car during the rebuild process, so I could take my time. Now I'm looking for a good roller. 2.7 cores are cheap.

Finding the perfect roller might be the hard part. It depends how particular you are. I personally would build the engine, then swap it into the SC (but I would be doing a performance rebuild), or buy a complete car and store it elsewhere. There is probably someone with a garage in your area that they are not using, that you could rent cheaply. It doesn't have to be that close to the house since you will not be working on the car itself or driving it for a time period while you do the rebuild.

I bought a separate core motor too which I'm building into a race motor. I can work on it at my leasure and still ride in my 911 any time that I want. The project motor also takes up a lot less space in my garage then a second car would.

Well, after disccussing it with the CFO, the main consideration is "how much"? Certainly it's usually easier to get past the boss with a low initial purchase... Anyone have a rough idea how much a 2.7 might be?

Depending on the engine condition and type, the tools you already own and enhancements you elect to make, my estimate is: $5000 to $8000. Sounds like a good plan (engine without car) to me if you can finance it. Jim

I paid $1500 for a good running 2.7 core, but I'm not very good at getting the best price. I'll bet the going rate is less than that.

Doing the motor first sounds great to me. Here's my stupidity story.

I bought a 72 coupe that had a motor that had been removed to do a Weber conversion and Carrera tensioner upgrade. It only needed engine installation, the valve adjustment, cam timing, and carbs tuning. Turns out there was a nut inside one of the cylinders that had already been smashed into the piston top and bent a valve. I just wanted to get it running and replaced the bad valve and then put the motor in the car. There was low compression on the side of the motor I didn't have worked on. It now runs but only on 4.5 cylinders. Strike one.

Rather than spend more money rebuilding the 2.4 I found a 2.7 liter long block that supposedly came from a reputable person and was sold as a good running 2.7. I bought that and had a leakdown performed. There was 90% leakdown in 5 of 6 exhaust valves and 18% leakdown past the rings in the last cylinder. It could be carbon buildup on the valves, but I'm thinking at least one cylinder will be weak regardless. I am going to take off one head to check the valves to get a better idea of the condition. Strike two.

Now I am faced with trying to part out the 2.7 and find a reasonably priced good motor to put in my 1972. It's hard to find a decent used motor and most people want a lot of money for something that's a pig in a poke and an exhorbitant amount of money for a known condition recently rebuilt motor. I see lots of decent looking shells for sale, but not very many engines. I think next time I will buy a rebuildable core and build the motor first. Then I will locate a suitable shell to put it in. Yes, it will cost more, but the cash outlay can be amortized over a longer period of time without interest or spousal penalty. And you'll know EXACTLY what you have in a motor. I've heard that advice before and maybe it's actually starting to sink through this thick skull of mine.

I still need a motor (really wanted a 3.0) and still have a car that barely can move under its own power. Maybe I'm I'm a little too gullible or expecting too much. Anyone want to sell me the Brooklyn bridge? :(

Rob

A core re-build sounds good...

Anyone know where you can get a good core? I'd like a winter project (2.7) but I'm always concerned that the one I buy is going to have some catastrophic problem with it...

If you start with a running motor (most of them) you most likely won't have anything too catasrophic. Keep in mind that your looking for a project to rebuild -- so you will most likely find lots of things "to do while you're in there".

See this is my azz-backwards way of ending up with two cars!! :D

VaSteve,

I’m going to address the first question; “Should I buy and rebuild an engine with no car.”

The answer is an unequivocal YES for several reasons:
As you (and others) said, you get to leisurely learn all the intricacies of a 911 engine.
You get to collect all the information and tools necessary.
You will have some “value added.”

Now for some recommendations:
Find a running ‘83SC complete engine (same as your 911.)
Rebuild it to stock plus normal upgrades specs over a year +/-.
Keep it “stock appearing” even show condition.
Swap it into your ‘83SC and get some break-in miles on it.

Now you have to make a decision:
You can keep the newly rebuilt stock engine.
You can rebuild your OE ‘83SC engine and reinstall it in your car.
You can rebuild your OE engine to some improved specs.
You can sell the newly rebuilt engine as demonstrably running and available for PPI.

Some other factors;
An ‘83SC engine (or complete engine and transmission) is readily available, not particularly expensive, and is unlikely to have the problems of a 2.7.
Don’t buy rust.
If you do everything properly, document everything possible, and have some NoVa Pelicans supervise, you will have a really nice (valuable) engine.
I agree, the initial investment is low and you can purchase new parts as you and CFO want.

How to start:
Make yourself a good workshop place; shelves, workbench, good lighting, etc.
Buy some basic tools; engine stand & yoke, cam timing, compression &cylinder leak, and normal mechanic and measuring instruments.
Buy an engine (&trans) only after you are all set up. Wait for the best engine and best deal. Don’t be afraid of buying more than one. Carefully inspect (PPI) any engine offered.
Don’t disassemble it until you are ready to document, clean, and measure everything.

This is a good and worthwhile project.

Best,
Grady

Hmmm... I never thought of breaking it in in my own car! Great idea (along with the other comments.) :)

This will probably be one of the most technical things I have ever attempted. Once the project commences, I will have to keep you all updated.

I look forward to these comments, please post more!

In response to Rob Channell's stories - the best way to get a good motor is to get it out of a car that runs. That's what I did with the 3.2 I recently bought ($6200, 60K miles, good compression, no broken studs, incl harness and tach). I got a chance to actually see it run (although the car wasn't driveable).

You're right - anything else is a pig-in-a-poke. An engine that doesn't come with a guarantee can only be considered a "core" engine. There's usually a good reason why the engine is out of the car (like it needs a rebuild).

-Wayne

VaSteve,

I agree with Wayne, buy an engine that someone can demonstrate running if possible. That is worth paying a premium for.

On the other hand, assuming someone has an ‘83SC engine out of a car, for sale and you (or another) can inspect it, what should you look for?

First I would remove the sparkplugs and, using a light on a wand, look in the combustion chambers. There shouldn’t be any rust. If OK, oil the cylinders. Remove the intake valve covers and inspect the cams and rockers. Again, no rust. Oil the cams and rockers.

Next, I would turn the engine with a wrench. Don’t force it. Remember, it takes two revolutions per cycle. After about ten revolutions, ask yourself “Did the force required change?” “Did it take more force to get it to first turn?” That is an indication of how long the engine has been sitting. As you rotate the engine, continue to inspect the combustion chambers.

Next, drain the oil and inspect the magnet. (On engines that have a sump plate, inspect the perimeter of the screen for foreign particles.) If you can, cut the oil filter apart and inspect for metal.

You can do a cylinder leak test. The criterion is that all the cylinders should be equally bad but none over 20% or so.

I encourage you to buy an absolutely complete engine (and more) that has not been disassembled prior. If an engine is a recent assemblage of parts, walk away. With all the junk that we threw away or used as cut-away demonstrations, I could have built engines with every single part defective.

With a non-running engine you are just buying a collection of parts. Again, don’t shy away from buying more than one.


Yes, this is a technical undertaking. It is easy. There is all the technical information available. There are tools. There are spare parts. There are lots of knowledgeable Pelican help for you. This is not experimental rocket science. This is not the “practice” of medicine, where there aren’t spares or a complete instruction manual. Fear not – You can do it.

Best,
Grady

Excellent - I just did this (bought a 2.2 long block and rebuilt is so I could continue driving my 70 911T) and fired my rebuild up yesterday. See pics below. Was bone dry excempt for drip from oil filter console. 34 year old o-ring was hard and flat. Used some cork gasket material to fabricate a temporarary replacement. Ran strong, sounded louder, smelled new.

I bought my long block from a nice fellow out in Wash or Oregan, I'm in Houston. I had already purchased a set of P&C a few years back in preparation. Machine work at EBS, used SSIs, lot's of parts from Pelican, some borrowed tools, some purchased tools like the yoke. Worked on it for over a year just like Grady recommends above. Last couple of weeks, I would just sit in the garage and look at it on the floor mounted with the tranny running back through my mind all of the steps to ensure it was done right. It took a few trys moving the distributor to get it to start, at first it popped & puttered, then it caught and sounded awsome. I loved the 20 minute initial run. Did a jig and grinned like a fool. Can't wait to get home tonight for the next breakin drive.

PS: Now I've got a 2.2 long block (from a running car) ready for someone to buy and rebuild. Various other parts to list later.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1093881759.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1093881778.jpg

Grady:

You stated that I should get an 83SC motor. Assumedly this is because I have an 83SC car. Or, is there another reason. Why wouldn't any 3.0 SC motor be substitutable. My oher consideration would be what could I fit the motor into (longhood for example) when it was done...with relative ease (ie. not a lot of cutting)?

What should I pay for such a motor (assuming it's demostrated as running)?

rw7810: that is beautiful!

Steve, what is your desired end result regarding car / engine? What is your planned use?

Steve, I believe Grady chose '83SC motor to make your car as original as possible if you chose to sell it with the rebuilt motor. The extra work to find an '83 motor is probably worth it if this is at all a concern, and it shouldn't carry a price premium over any other year SC motor.

Good Question, Jim.

The end result of the engine is the learning experience of doing it, without necessarily *needing* to do it to the Targa to keep it running. My thought is that I would rather learn on a core motor because when I get frustrated and stop temporarily or wait for parts to come in/back, I can jump in the Targa and cruise around knowing that it will all be worthwhile.

I'm not exactly sure what I will do with it then. My desire it to put it into a roller coupe. It wouldn't necessarily be a "nice" one...one I wouldn't mind tracking if it turns out thats something I want to do.

It's kinda a tough question to answer since stopping to think about it makes teh idea sound kinda silly. :) When I bought my Targa, track time wasn't a consideration. Now that it is, I really don't want to spend too much time with the Targa on the track. Plus I like keeping it stock. Some old roller coupe, I wouldn't feel bad subjecting to harsher treatment or "GruppeB" type mods.

some track time isn't a problem for porsches IMHO. lots of opinions on this, but one of the nicest porsches I know of, and the one I would most like to buy, is run at just about every track event in this area, which is about 18 days per year.

anyway, it's up to you of course, but I at least am not convinced that I need another 911 just for DE. There are some very fast guys in my region with cars very suitable for street driving.

The big question is... do you have a space to store a roller?

If so... be patient, shop, and find a good used coupe with a motor. Running or not. With the known intent of doing the full rebuild REGARDLESS.

I bought my whole car for 5600.00. Realistically I could have rebuilt the motor stock, and put it in and had a nice car. My intentions were to make an RSR though...

I too have a Targa. The SC is a full back date project and the motor is now ready to start reassembly (parts to arrive soon) I;m shooting for a Dec. build deadline.

Anyway, I think you should do the whole car of you can. You'll be better off in the long run... Buying an unknown roller can be VERY $$$$ especially since most "decent" ones go for around 5000.00. And usually these aren't "complete" no trans etc... Don't forget that little issue...:D

My 5600.00 "roller"

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1093984036.jpg

Why not just buy a running SC with everything for 8500$ instead of $3.5-$5k for an SC engine core and $5-$6k for the roller that may not have a $1500 trans? That is if you have room for the car like was already said.

Harold

How long of a time period is reasonable to do a rebuild? I'm looking for the longest time you can take without having to be worried about parts rusting, etc. I'd like to take my sweet time (and go easy on the check book) over maybe a year and a half. I assume that as long as everything I assemble is coated in oil and covered in plastic, I should be ok.

Does everyone agree? Does anyone have any tips on doing an "extended" rebuild? I'm setting up a clean, organized area now to begin engine disassembly in a month or so.

If everything is clean (case, etc) it should be fine. Leave the crank and rods together and leave the oil on them. It will leave a protective film on them that will last a LONG time. As long as everything is dry it could sit almost indefinately. If your going to take a super long time, take the oil items put them in a plastic bag and seal them, or you could coat them with wd-40 and seal them up. Should last forever....

Steve,

Andy is correct. My recommendation of an ‘83SC engine is because it is a direct exchange for the engine in your 911 and carries no cost penalty. With some research and input from Pelicans more knowledgeable than me, other years are probably appropriate with minimal swapping of parts.

As I understand your goals, you want (not necessarily in this order):
Low initial investment.
Not to have to store a roller.
Have you a personal engine workshop.
No time pressure to complete.
Collect all the technical info and tools necessary.
Gain the skills to rebuild a 911 engine.
Keep your ‘83SC running in the interim.
Have a good (valuable) engine to use and/or sell.


I’ll repeat my prior admonitions:
Get the technical info, tools, and workspace organized first.
Shop for an engine(s) with no time pressure.
Don’t be afraid of buying several engines.


You don’t need a special engine for taking your 911 to the track. A reasonably maintained stock 911SC works great.
Don’t get the cart before the horse, do your engine project first. Keep your eye out for a good roller or partially completed track car.

Any engine, you are going to want to disassemble and inspect ASAP. If you buy an engine is represented to be one way and it is something else, you want to deal with the seller promptly. You want to know what other inspections (magnaflux, etc.) you want to have done and if there is reconditioning or replacement necessary. There is a lot of planning that goes into this process.

Storing engine components for a long time is not a problem. Surfaces need to be preserved with the proper lubricant/preservative. I prefer Marvel Mystery Oil and Valvoline “Tectyl” cosmoline. If you have the opportunity with a running engine, there are some desirable preservative measures you can take for the fuel system. Geof33 and I are spoiled with out Colorado thin and dry air. I have a 914 body/chassis that I had dipped in 1974; the surfaces are great after almost 30 years storage.

Best,
Grady