supertec headstuds-anyone used them?
 

im about to buy a set of supertec head studs with hardware and was wondering if anyone has used them/had any probs with them?

Andy

...

I'm wondering are they really overkill? If you are doing a good performance, non-turbo app does it really need $750. stud kit? or is a steel replacement set more than enough?

i went for the supertecs in the end. im building a 400 horse 3.3 turbo and im paranoid that if i don't use good studs they might fail. ive been sucked down that 'better to be safe than sorry' road.

Andy

Not familiar with Supertec studs, what are the differences between them and Raceware and ARP and what makes them better then either of the well-known brands? Are they simply rebranded units sold under a different name?

Ralph

dunno, but they are cheaper than raceware/arp and are constructed from some pretty fancy sounding **** so i bought 'em. not a particularly technical way of choosing a product but there we go!

I think Supertech is raceware.. ...... just don't know of they are really needed. It's not like it's another $300.00 ....it's more like $750.+

i think they cost me $500 from pelican, so, each to thier own.

Supertec is not Raceware. They are not $750 either.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100448765.jpg

Henry Schmidt, the guy who owns/runs Supertec is a regular contributor here. Try sending him a PM about the studs. He's a no BS kinda guy who offers a lot of knowledge to this BBS.

Here's his contact info, BTW:

Here's the difference
 

These cylinder head studs are an innovative design that is unique compared to anything else on the market today. The kit includes 24 studs, washers and head nuts. The polished studs have rolled threads; the case end is slightly longer, permitting it to thread deeper into the case, and the head end is fine threaded for smoother and more consistent torque. The nuts are 12-point with a serrated flange and the washers are hardened ground.

Supertec chose an alloy that is race-proven and impervious to corrosion. They spent two years to design and develop this product until the desired specs were achieved. These studs are currently being used in everything from 700hp+ race engines to two-liter production street engines. Until now, these studs have been one of the best kept secrets in the high performance Porsche world. Now they are available to you through Pelican, and at a reasonable price too! Best of all, they are GUARANTEED for LIFE! (Any reported failures will be subject to analysis by Supertec Performance.)

Fits all 911 based air-cooled engines from 1964 to 1998. This includes 3.8 RSR, 3.6 Carrera, 930 Turbos, 911 T, E, S, SC, 3.2 Carrera, and even 914-6.

Supertec Performance Cylinder Head Stud Kit (sold as a complete set, hardware included), 911/911 Turbo/964/993 - 2.4/2.7/3.0/3.2/3.3/3.6L engines [Photo]
SPTC-HSK-1

Available through our host.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100448672.jpg

Andy,

How many HP will your engine have? If it's under 250, plain steel should be fine (IMHO), and they are only $200 for the set. All the high-end head studs are steel too, so they will have the same difference of expansion from the cylinders as OEM steel.

Good luck,

JP

Guys, thanks for posting the info, but it still doesn't answer the question: What makes them better then Raceware or ARP studs or are they simply another option to consider?

The info posted was simply marketing jargon, there is nothing there that says WHY they are better then the other well established products.

I KNOW that ARP initially manufactured products that Raceware then rebranded as their own before Raceware went and did their own manufacturing.

My ARP studs are also made of a special alloy steel that is also corrosion resistant and includes "premium parallel ground" washers and 12-pt. head nuts.

Quoting direct from my ARP catalog, they are made from "premium grade 8740 alloy that is rated far superior to aircraft quality and then each stud is precisely heat-treated to 200,000 psi. Following heat treat, each stud is centerless ground to make it as close to perfectly concentric as possible. This procedure involves about ten very slight cuts and results in an exceptionally straight part. It's important to note that lesser quality studs are not even centerless ground, the material is thread rolled in bar stock form mostly before heat-treat when the material is easier to machine. ARP studs are thread rolled after heat-treat, which gives them about 1000% (that's ten times) better fatigue strength than those studs that are threaded prior to heat-treat".

When fitting the ARP studs to the case, there are also plenty of threads left over (they only can go so far in the case before bottoming out). ARP products are also race-proven (more so then any of the other brands mentioned) in every type of motorsport for virtually every type of engine.

Of course any new product offered is going to be "better" then current offerings according to the manufacturer, that's how it is differentiated and how they try and get people to buy them. If it's only "as good" as the current offerings, the only advantage a new product has is price and potentially customer service.

Not affiliated with Raceware or ARP, just looking for more "why" info. I would speculate that Supertec are similar to Raceware and ARP and are simply another alternative when purchasing head studs.

Henry, here is a pic of some ARP's I installed on my 3.5L motor. Can you critique the advantages/disadvantages between yours and theirs? If you have an image that you can post of yours on a case, that might also make it easier for people to see what you are referring to.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100451030.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100451078.jpg

You obviously won't have me as a customer Henry as I am content with the ARP's I just installed, but this will give you an opportunity to show people that may be on the fence why Supertec should be chosen (or at least seriously considered) over the other offerings.

Regards,

Ralph

Ok now just calm down everbody! I just want to know if ANY of those higher-end studs kits are overkill on a non-turbo street engine.

If Porsche put steel on their Turbo apps, aren't they good enough to use to replace with on my mild non-turbo build? I see clearly the need to go to ARP or some other higher grade ROD bolts but still not convinced that the high-end stud kit is worth the extra $$ for me. I'm not being cheap, just don't want to waste my money.

fair point ralph. i really just bought them off the strenght of the info and their price. JP, im looking for 400 ish hp


Andy

Ralph, If I was building myself a warm n/a engine id just use the oe turbo studs. they put out 400 horses so.........I could have gone that route myself as thats my target but im thinking that i may want more....................maybe ive caught some sort of airboure bug off juan ritz!

Andy

Asphalt, nothing to calm down about.:) This isn't an attack (I hope it doesn't look that way), simply a request for more detailed information. ARP puts all their cards on the table with respect to revealing product info, I just feel other manufacturers should do the same regarding their products rather then supplying generic info that doesn't really tell anyone anything.

In my opinion (FWIW), yes I believe they are probably overkill on a mild street engine. The 993 steel studs seem to work just fine and would have been what I used as well (to save money just like you) on my n/a 3.5L if I wouldn't have got such a smoking deal on the ARP's.

I haven't seen the Supertec studs and don't know anything about them, hence the questions.

Ralph

The pictures and answers you seek are in this tread.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166588&highlight=supert ec+space+age
The material was found in a factory race engine built by Porsche and made big HP in the 80s. You guess what it was
Here goes.
Remembering that I am a mechanic not an engineer the specifics are as follows:
17-4ph HCR 38-42 4hrs @ Temp 1025
http://www.latitudemanufacturing.com/174PHPrint.html

Thanks Henry, interesting reading.

Ralph

Sheesh, if nothing else (if I were buying premium head studs), I'd buy the Supertec studs just on the fact you have Henry's word they have a lifetime guarantee, and they are sold directly on Waynes site. They both contribute a lot to this site, and I find that anyone willing to give out "free" professional advice will see more of my green. A little biased, I'm sure....

R/
Dustin

Just curious if anyone has ever seen a failed steel headstud? I know Porsche went to Dilavar on the street turbos for all 24 studs and suspect but don't know for sure that they used them in the 935 as well. This talk about super duper head studs is kind of rediculous. Any steel stud will pull the threads out of the case before it will break unless it corrodes. The only advantage that I can see from stud differences would be thermal expansion differences and none of the studs except Dilavar are different in that catagory.

-Andy

I really think I agree, Andy. I think Henry said he found the 17-4PH studs in a high powered turbo race engine (perhaps 962), I wonder whether the thermal expansion on that material is similar to or different from the 200ksi alloy steels, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

I had Henry put supertec studs in my engine aout a year ago. They have served me well so far...Why did I choose the Supertec studs? First the lifetime warranty. You cannot have any more confidence in your product than that. Second, I have observed that broken and pulled headstuds seem to be a prevailing problem based on posts here...broken with dilvar...pulled with others (That was the problem with my old 2.7). Henry's studs have a history of doing neither...even under extreme conditions. They did not cost that much more either. It seems to me that people on PP BBS overkill on so many parts..suspension, brakes, cupholders, etc, then try to save a buck on the most important part...their engine. I figure that it is one of those "while you're in there" things. I don't intend to be "in there" for at least 100k after a Supertec rebuild...so amortizing the difference over that many miles makes the better quality a cheap investment. And like most of you guys...I run my engine pretty hard. For my engine...overkill is good.

Yes, we see it all the time. Failure is measured in degrees as is performance. As for Delivar in 935s not in the one's I've seen. [see picture]
Porsche redesigned their heads studs at least 5 times in an attempt to improve stud performance. Porsche is a great design company but designers sometimes have cost constraints that impair their designs. When we designed our stud,we designed it with performance in mind, not cost. We looked at how other engine designers remedy these problems. All performance engines that I have worked with that had a steel head stud in an aluminum case or block used a coarse thread in the case and a fine thread at the nut end. (see Continental aircraft engines, high performance motorcycle engines, Ford, Chevy, Rolls Royce, BMW and the list goes on). And what's with the allen head nut ? A 12 point flange nut is the best hardware for this application.
Performance you say? What can a head stud do? Simply put, a head stud holds the heads in place. When you build a large number of engines that come apart with very low mileage ( race engines) you can see problems that quality engine builders want to remedy. Head movement is the problem and our studs reduce that problem to an exceptable level. Whether you make 200 hp or 800 hp our head studs hold the heads in place. This is not our experience with stock steel studs.

It might be ridiculous to assume that if it hasn't broken, it must work just fine.

As for thermal expansion, all the head studs ( Fcatory Porsche, ARP, Raceware and SUPERTEC) are made of differing materials so they all expand differently. The key might be to look at why Porsche chose Dilavar. It is my understanding that Dilavar was chosen in an attempt to stop the heads from leaking (seeping) during and after cool down. Leaking oil not compression. This was the reason for the missing fins on the 3.3 (78-89) Turbo cylinders. We prefer to build an engine that functions well during running and we'll let cool down take care of itself. The 993 stud is steel so apparently Porsche have taken the same direction.

Raceware, stock steel, updated Dilavar (all thread), old Dilavar, Factory 935, Supertec, 993 steel
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100620193.jpg

The 2nd one from the left looks like the Raceware I've used.
-Chris

The second stud is a stock steel stud that was cad plated.

They all look so frail and puny in comparison to the 935 and your head stud. Also yours and the 935 stud look eerily similar, in a good way! keep up the awesome work henry.

im with flintstone, surely overkill is better than a 20-30% saving on cost when it comes to key engine components?

Andy

Henry
Do you recommend retorqing your head studs at valve adj? If so, to what value? Any special instructions?

Hi Stoney
No retorquing but if you would like to check it the torque should be 30#.

Thanks Henry!

17-4PH is an excellent stainless "spring steel" with high yield strength (180KSI +). Its coefficient of thermal expansion is close to carbon steel. I've used it very successfully in the design of loadcells and as the host material/Mechanical amplifier for silicon strain-gage based bolt-on stress/strain gage designs. The high strength and temp match to carbon steel is ideal for these applications, high stresses and cycles, and as we can see for others as well.

Performance Developments, at Costa Mesa,(I think),they sell and use those studs,(Henry's), cheers,Antonio.

Henry, being Sunday today, I have been re-reading old threads about studs :D and I have just found two quotes that I find interesting. See below. So I'm wondering if your studs are manufactured in the same way? Can you confirm?

You'd be wrong. Neil does his own.;)

Ralph

I know, I only use Neil's stuff, they look similar thou, cheers, Ant.

The specs on our studs are as follows.
17-4ph HCR 38-42 4hrs @ Temp 1025
http://www.latitudemanufacturing.com/174PHPrint.html

The process is first to cut the round stock to length. Next we center less grind 3 times. Each end must be ground to the size specified by the tooling company for each thread roller. Then the center is ground to remove the transition (possible stress riser). Then they are heat treated to 1025* for the prescribed time (4hrs). At that point they a Rockwell tested to insure they are within specs (38-42).
Then the threads are rolled, each end receiving a separate thread pitch.
The threads are checked for depth and consistency.
The finished product is then polished to insure a quality surface. At that point they are inspected to ISO-9003.
We tried having a new company manufacture them to reduce cost and the result was a 300 piece sample run in the trash.
As you can see the process is lengthy and expensive. We build them because we wanted a better stud. If no one ever buys another one I will still make them for Supertec engines.

Ok....you got the attention of an amatuer steel geek here...lol. Do you know what thew alloying elements are and does it have similar properties to "high speed" steels as far as resistance to tempering goes? I ask because is supect that head studs might be close enough to some heat that could soften them up a bit over time if they werre made of standard springor carbon steel like 5160, 9260, 10xx series, etc. I use these to make knives and i can temper 5160 in my oven at around 350 degrees.

38-42 Rockwell is pretty soft compared to what I am used to. I shoot for 57-58 on my edges and probably high mid to high 40's on the spine of my knives....and they can be bent to the point where they don't spring back. Sounds like your studs are being annealed and normalized down pretty soft before HT. I would guess that you really don't have to worry that much about stress risers:D

To get closer look at the 935 stud, peek here http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=270137&highlight=name+t hat+stud