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That would be a mean little motor. Im not certain what case/crank/p's &c's henry used to get his 3.5 but it sure turned out to be a beast! Now that would be a nice engine, single plug, no insane CR, although the MFI setup im sure would be costly.
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-08-2004, 02:45 PM
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Go ahead and destroke the 3.0 litre crank. Using a honda journal size you can make it the 66 mm stroke. Pauter makes a nice rod for it.
Cost to do the crank work with re-nitride is about $1000,
I am not sure the cost of the rods.
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:41 PM
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John, how does it hold up? Any long term-severe duty feedback?
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Old 12-08-2004, 03:54 PM
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John that sounds very very interesting. Have you done or seen any cranks done up like this before?
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-08-2004, 04:01 PM
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I have seen a few done like this. By turning down the journal size the crank grinder can put in a huge fillet radius. Making the crank stronger. I know of one of these cranks spinning over 9000 Rpms.
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Old 12-08-2004, 04:31 PM
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9k+ is quite a bit of revs!! So john some cam questions for you please!

What cams would you suggest for these engines? All would have ITB/EFI and single plug with a desired CR of about 10.5:1

78 3.0 with above mentioned pieces

78 3.0 with 98mm p&c's

3.2 with 98mm p&c's

78 3.0 with 98mm p&c's with 66mm turned down crank

what im looking for is a good midrange with most of the power coming on higher in the rev range. For the super short stroke 3.0 that deserves all the high end power it can handle and I would build the valvetrain accordingly.

Right now the engine is a 78 sc 3.0 with 20/21 cams I believe but I actually think they may be 964 cams. SSI's and a very free flowing exhaust, 2 in 2 out. MSD 6al box and coil. Its very strong in the upper midrange, hard to set the idle in this "cold" weather too. It revs up to the high 7's, the power really comes on around 4k. Whichever engine we choose I am already set on where to get the cams, you sir. Your knowledge is tremendous and the fact that you spend time here on this board is what really sealed the deal.

I have read about cams over and over and still am a bit lost in the dark. Not good considering they are what really brings an engine to life. Sidenote, the first car race I went to, Long Beach Gran Prix in 98 I got to see the mechanics tear apart one of the penske engines. I still remember them paying extra attention to hide the cams from prying eyes. They let me look since cmon im a little kid with my dads huge camera around my neck. Compared to the other cams I have seen since then they looked really radical, Very strange shape on the lobes and a different color possibly material as well. I wish I had taken a pic haha.
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.

Last edited by Porschekid962; 12-09-2004 at 06:32 PM..
Old 12-09-2004, 06:25 PM
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Ryder, does your engine need rebuilding? If not, don't do this. Waste of money, man, because I bet in a year you'll want more power.

Wait until your engine breaks entirely, like someone else suggested earlier on this thread. Then get a 3.6. and a strong box. As is, that car just needs to be driven!
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Old 12-09-2004, 06:38 PM
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I will always want more power!!!!! If I had my way I would be building a 3.6L TT engine with 959 heads, del west pnuematic valvetrain, custom weismann sequential tranny (built the McLaren F1 trans) and on and on.

The engine has an unknown amount of miles on it, dad puts a lot on though, drives back and forth from pasadena to woodland hills 6/7 days a week on top of all over LA and our spirited angeles crest weekend runs.

I'm not certain, I need to take the cam covers off and look but I think it definately needs a valve adjust or possibly replace springs. When he bought the car we never got a definitave answer on the engine specs. He would rather build it sooner than later.

We are just finalizing design of the new engine so we can being buying up parts and start the build by feb/mar. Kevin just gave us a heads up on a car for me, fingers crossed big time, you know I need to get into an old Pcar. So we want to build this motor together at a good pace while we strip out "my" car and then swap the old motor in.

Basically, he wants a list of possibilities, prices and so on.
As soon as I am driving again I think a weekend fun run is in order, you, my dad and I and Kevin in his rear engined wonder! At least we can go hangout at a bar now that im 21! Hope to see ya soon and hope your car is still doing what she's supposed to!

ciao! ryder
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-09-2004, 07:03 PM
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Are we talking 91 octane pump gas?
for the first two engines I like my DC21 grind. The 3rd engine would like my DC24 cam.
The destroked engine I would run the DC42 on 110 lobe centers and run the engine 4500 and up. You will need head work and springs, Ti retainers etc. good fuel etc etc...
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Old 12-09-2004, 11:31 PM
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As far as gas I can run a mix. There is a 76 station here in pasadena that sells 100 octane. Ti retainers, springs, possibly valves I figured for the super short stroke 3.0.
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-09-2004, 11:50 PM
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pics

This is the motor in the rear end right now. 78 sc 3.0 with 20/21 or 964 cams, SSI's, 2 in 2 out banana muffler done up my Tyson at TRE, very good sound, 3 inch tips. MSD 6al with coil, new wires, chopped off airbox thanks to KevinP73's air tools!!! Not his fault, I did it. Stock CIS sitting on top.



So sooner than later that CIS will turn into ITB's
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.
Old 12-10-2004, 12:14 AM
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There are two ways to build a short-stroke engine using the 98mm pistons:

- Use a 962 crankshaft which has a large flywheel end, and a 66mm stroke
- Use a Euro Carrera or 1976/77 Turbo case and use an early crank (preferred). These cases run about $1500 or so.

-Wayne
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Old 12-10-2004, 03:22 AM
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Wayne, what is the reason for using those options over the 66mm destroked 3.0 crank? I assume that setup requires custom rods.
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Old 12-12-2004, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porschekid962
Wayne, what is the reason for using those options over the 66mm destroked 3.0 crank? I assume that setup requires custom rods.
I haven't been directly involved with anyone who has destroked a crank. The cranks are hardened from the factory - anytime that you cut them, you will weaken them - you will need to renitride them. I assume also if you want to "destroke" a crank, then that would involve cutting the rod bearing journals to the inside of the crank and making them smaller. Yes, custom rods and custom bearings = huge PIA. Camgrinder mentioned that Pauter made some custom rods? They can't be too common, or too cheap though. Plus, you'll have smaller rod journals which will result in more force being placed on the bearings.

All in all, I'd say it's not a great idea. It would probably cost far more than a 3.0 Carrera case too.

-Wayne
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Old 12-12-2004, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BURN-BROS
I believe the elusive and expensive 959 crank is what would fit the bill. If I am not mistaken its 66 mm but would fit the later cases. It would be cheaper getting a billet crank made to spec. In between $4500.00 to $6500.00 should get you one made.
Correction - it's a 962 crank, not the 959 crank. Well, actually, I'm not sure what the 959 crank is like, but I know that what you're describing here is the 962 crank...

-Wayne
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Old 12-12-2004, 11:57 PM
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Wayne, I would venture to guess that they are the same or similar cranks. The pics I have seen show no differences that you can readily observe. Possibly there are more "962" spares running around?
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Old 12-13-2004, 07:04 AM
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burn bros how is the twin plug coming along??

i agree that there are probably more 956/962 cranks around but you have to wonder what kind of condition they are in, then again its one of those unubtanium parts.

sidenote: just got the excellence mag today, there was an add for a semi tube frame 993 bodied car with a 962 engine.

also, pretty much finalized the engine build design.
3.2 case, crank, heads, rods, 98mm p's and c's around 10.5:1 actual compression or close to it, single plug, itb's and efi.
ssi's and exhaust will stay along for the ride.

so hopefully i will soon have a good 3.0 to have fun with.
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74 911s neverending story. two feet and a jetta for now.

Last edited by Porschekid962; 12-15-2004 at 11:29 PM..
Old 12-15-2004, 11:26 PM
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Sounds like a fun engine. I think you are going to have to twin plug that motor. the CR will probably be OK but the pistons and bore will not. A 10.5:1 piston will have a very high wedge shape to it. combined with the large diameter this effectively divides the combustion chamber. So this leaves a flame front that has to climb a mountain. The flame front also has a large distance to travel in a 98mm piston. You will not have efficient burn and loose power. The residue left by the incomplete combustion will then lead to pinging. Just something to think about.
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Old 12-16-2004, 07:46 AM
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Mold has been preped at the injection molder and I will be stopping by to proof first article today or tomorrow (crossing my fingers).
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Old 12-16-2004, 07:50 AM
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Close to launch. Have sourced a fresh 3.6 motor for dad so hopefully I will have that torn down and rebuilt in the next month or so after his new brakes go on and I can FINALLY tear into his 3.0. I have a set of 993 3.6 pistons and cylinders laying around. Is there some way to make these fit onto a 78 3.0 case? or am I better off finding a 3.6 case and dropping a 70mm crank in it?
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:56 AM
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