10k to spend on a 3.2 - What to do?
 

Suggestions...? Looking for 300 hp NA.

-Jeff

3.6? Then sell the 3.2. As they say, there is no substitute for .....

Sherwood

Yeah I hear ya. My 3.2 as 33k on it. So it needs nothing.

I am in the process of putting the car (84 Carrera on a diet) but 300 hp would be nice. Car is street/track.

I was trying to stay around 10k and the 3.6 swap would go a long way even if I wanted to hot it up a bit before it went in the car.

No turbo or SC must be N/A with loads of torque. 915 will remain as is or maybe add LSD.

6k for a pristine 3.2 motor with 33k on it?

-Jeff

Plus the 3.6 has a lot of "the good stuff" already like twin plugs and a better intake (dual plenum or Varioram depending on which 3.6 you get).
-Chris

I got close to 300 going from 3.2L to 3.5L but if 300 is your absolute goal then the others are right, do a 3.6L transplant. Your 3.2L at 33K miles would sell in the $6K range I suppose.

80 hp/litre is possible for the 3.2L to 3.4L (3367cc) & 3.5L (3506cc) upgrades using the original Motronic and pump gas. The 993 3.6L motors are a bit better yet and should get you to 300 rather easily with some TLC.

3.4L conversions (assuming Motronic) are in the 225-235 whp range, my 3.5L conversion made 239 whp out of the box and 246 whp with some custom chip tuning on the dyno. Many of the 993 3.6L's motors are in the 260 whp range on Dynojets so that is a good indication where you would be at.

Pricing is all over the place, some guys say they spend $8K on a 3.6L transplant and others pay over $20K, dependant on a variety of factors such as motor purchase, sale of old motor, DIY labor or mechanic, etc.

I did my 3.5L conversion easily under $10K but I had some special circumstances that others probably would not be able to replicate. Whatever you decide to do, it really wakes these cars up. They are still heavy, but I am really happy with the power the car has now.

Good luck with your decision!:)

Ralph

Based on this one statement I have three words for you:

DIS PLACE MENT

NA Torque is related very closely to displacement. I think you'll find a 3.4 or 3.5 rebuild on your 3.2 ain't that cheap compared to a 3.6.

Size matters. ;)

Plus you have a 915 box that can handle the torque.

I vote 3.6.

You'll never see 300hp out of a normally aspirated DME 3.2....

never.

The most you could hope for is about 250...maybe 260 if you throw enough money at it.

.....just .02 from someone who's just gone thru all that.

But.....If you are just set that -nothing less will do- save yourself alot of engine flogging and buy a '96 or later varioram 993 motor, put super cup cams in it and your done....tons of power with a big cushion of reliability to boot.

Have fun !!!

agreed
and a big AMEN;)

Sounds like you guys are all on the fence about what to do... ;)

Pretty definitive vote for the 3.6 it seems.

My only concern is giving up a bullet proof 3.2 with low miles and lots of life and pick up a 3.6 with unknown history and many more miles...

I guess a 3.5 built on the bleeding edge of perfomance to get near 300hp would in theory be less reliable than a 3.6 not fully maxed.

I would get the 3.6 and do the work myself. The cup cams for sure. What else for more horsepower while I have it out and not spend silly money on it?

-Jeff

A properly built 3.4L or 3.5L can last well over 100K but I would agree with you that a 3.6L gone through would be a much better platform. What makes the 3.4L and 3.5L options so expensive is the high cost of the Mahle piston/cylinder sets which are in the $3K-$4K range all by themselves!!! Another thing to consider is that eventually Mahle will discontinue (it is already starting!) the 98mm and 100mm sets and everyone will be SOL and be forced to use other manufacturers.

Sounds like you have a good plan to me, especially if you go through the 3.6L and do some reliability upgrades before installing. You should be able to get top dollar for your low mileage 3.2L, so that significantly helps defray the cost.

Bear in mind that while a larger displacement version of your 3.2L is a direct swap (actually your 3.2L rebuilt), a 3.6L is not. You will have to consider exhaust, software and more oil cooling in addition to the motor itself. This has been done countless times now, so there is plenty of advice and info out there for you to do the swap right.

Do your research and set up a ballpark of ALL costs associated so you know exactly where you are going in. It can become a slippery slope and many people (myself included) fall into the "for $100 more" syndrome.

Ralph

Thanks Ralph -

As someone who has BTDT I value your opinion. If you had to do it all over again same route?

-Jeff

Keep in mind Ralph has some connections that helped him defray costs in several areas, if I understand correctly.

Andy is right, I had some very special circumstances where it was much more advantageous to do what I did. Me personally, I have no regrets and would do the same thing all over again. I have very little money into my motor for a variety of reasons but I am the exception.

A good 3.4L or 3.5L is still going to cost most people in the $8K-$12K range if you are doing it yourself and using premium parts. It is not cheap and you are limited to about 240 whp on Motronic, mild cams and pump gas. A DIY 3.6L transplant with selling your core motor should be in the same area and will make more power and theoretically be more reliable to boot.

If I was in your shoes, I would look at the 3.6L as the serious option first and figure out what your total cost would be installed and running.:)

Ralph

Talk to Souk at motomotions.com

He's working on alot of this kind of stuff. I think he's working on a turbo kit.

Turbocharging a naturally-aspirated engine will be an adventure (not for the faint of heart) unless you're into that sort of thing. However, 300 HP min. would be no problem on a pressurized 3.2, even with mild boost. It all depends on you.

Yes, talk to Souk.

Sherwood

Hi Gang,

First why is boosting not an option? Is emissions a concern?

I am building a 3.4 with mild boost that will see 300HP. That's the goal, and I don't think it's out of reach.

I'll be building a similar engine at the same time for a client that will be even more hot rodded than my own.

The P&C's seem to be the biggest cost in the project, so I will be boring and replating cylinders to cut the cost a bit. JE pistons instead of Mahle, but lets not start the JE-vs-Mahle debate again.

nolift's low mileage 3.2 would just need the topend done. No need to crack the case unless you plan to crank up the boost and increase the max. RPM. That will keep cost down. With a properly sized turbo, the power will start to build at 2500-2800 RPM and nicely span the gap between the RPMs we cruise at and that 4200-4500 spot where a stock 3.2 starts to come alive.

Send it to me and I will fix you up!!!!!!!!! Just kidding, I am intersted in what 10k turns into. I will be doing a similair job for a client and we are not sure excactly how it is going to be spent. Keep us posted, I would like to know what you decide.

Thanks, Jeff

Jeff, fwiw, we've gotten about 238 rwhp on a Motronic n/a 3.2 but this was a race motor, and not something you'd really want to street around in. We probably left at least another 10 hp on the table if we could have ExtrudeHoned the manifolds, did a little port work, and used a MAF sensor instead of the stock air flow meter.

Damn you Steve!!!:) I hope that you are doing well and the rains aren't killing your new development.

Ralph

On the contrary, the rains are killing me and costing me a small fortune. Since my project is on a hillside, the vertical hillside cuts are colapsing faster than I can erect the retaining walls. It like building sandcastles in the middle of the surf. The last rain exposed the footings of the adjacent house next door. I fear one more rain, and sections of the homes next door will begin colapsing on my side.

bigger valves and clean up the ports w/ the cams and headers gives a lot of bang for the buck. Don't forget a custom chip to coordinate everything.

While I agree that a 3.6 is probably the path of least resistance to a goal of 300hp, it still seems to me that adding $10k of mods to a nice 3.2 should able to get to 300hp also? Surely? Heads, cams, pistons, PMOs and a crank fire ignition wouldn't do it?

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all - just trying to understand why 300hp is so hard to achieve with a 3.2.

Mike

Thanks guys - these are all great suggestions.

Steve - I need to get the latest chip you sent me in my car (snow over here on the right coast, rain where you are) Maybe I will not need to do anything to my 3.2 ;-)

I don't have anything against force fed 911's per say. I am not a fan of the on off nature of the power. Agreed there are ways to minimize boost but on the track it makes me feel a little sketch...

I have driven a load of turbo cars - all a blast and very addictive.

I must say I prefer the smooth N/A power larger engines, displacement offers over the huffers of in all forms. The M5 is the devil I tell ya...

And of course last but not least...

The good Dr. Timmins is just an hour's drive north for me also, which is the first place I would start my project and then customize myself from there.

-Jeff

I built a "mild" 3.2. There is a 3.6 on my engine stand now that is going to be a 3.8 if that helps you at all. Mind you my 3.2 was fairly mild. I'll bet if you ask Ralph (carrera3.5l) his bill was more than 10k. Just a guess though. My bill for the 3.6/8 will be quite a bit more as well by the time it is in the car, but I will have a 3.2 to sell to get some cash back.

Jeff

....that depends, there's lots of smokin' (and I mean literally !) std 3.2's running around who'd love to trade/p/ex for your good motor.

Then, seeing as you're ripping a motor apart, you won't mind that the one you're ripping up is a smoker.........you'd be doing the heads, P&C's anyway............