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Somewhere in the Midwest
 
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3.2 head sealing * flame rings * niresist

Options are:

*Niresist (ring grooves machined into heads and cylinders and a stainless steel ring is used)...differential expansion rates is unfavorable. I also assume that the "flame ring" is the same method..just a different name.

Garibaldi has a similar seal ring, but he uses an alloy. He hasn't returned my e-mail yet, but I'd be interested to here more.

*C2 head gasket...someone tell me what's done to 3.2 heads to get there! And who has had good results.

*nothing!...just use good head studs and we are good? Christian Garibaldi mentions a few times, that unless you expect the heads to lift...no extra sealing is needed. Did I misunderstand, Christian?

I'm going to use ARP studs...for a turbo engine. I might run it up to 1.2 bars of boost. Since I don't really trust the "flame ring" method, what troubles are down the road for me if I run no seal at all?

A machinist tells me that the 3.3 had an upgrade using a gasket. I would dig further into this, but since the 3.3 cylinders are 97mm, my 98mm cylinders are going to see 0.5 mm of gasket over hang! And still, I would have issues if the heads lift! So I don't see that as a fix.

What to do?
Old 03-04-2005, 10:06 AM
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I am also curious on the subject since I am planning on running a bit of high boost at times.

I have heard the niresist rings mentioned as a solution in addition to the custom solutions and my concerns are also their effectiveness and expansion rates.

I know from the fretting on my heads and cylinders that head lifting was an issue on my tweaked 930.
Old 03-04-2005, 04:53 PM
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When I researched this subject for my rebuild I concluded that the ni resist ring is a safety measure needed on engines that are intended to produce over 500HP or over 1 bar of boost for extended periods. I thought that the purpose was not to prevent "lifting" but to prevent the head from moving sideways, or pressure blowing out sideways. The head studs had better prevent any lifting or you would have other problems really fast.
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:25 PM
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Re: 3.2 head sealing * flame rings * niresist

We have had great success using flame rings on high hp turbos. We have also made cooper gaskets that seem to produce better oil sealing than flame rings but did not offer the same lever of compression sealing under extreme boost.
Quote:
Originally posted by Souk

I'm going to use ARP studs...for a turbo engine. ....
Why did you choose ARP over Supertec head studs?

Supertec Performance Cylinder Head Stud Kit
These cylinder head studs are an innovative design that is unique compared to anything else on the market today. The kit includes 24 studs, washers and head nuts. The polished studs have rolled threads; the case end is slightly longer, permitting it to thread deeper into the case, and the head end is fine threaded for smoother and more consistent torque. The nuts are 12-point with a serrated flange and the washers are hardened ground.

Supertec chose an alloy that is race-proven and impervious to corrosion. They spent two years to design and develop this product until the desired specs were achieved. These studs are currently being used in everything from 700hp+ race engines to two-liter production street engines. Until now, these studs have been one of the best kept secrets in the high performance Porsche world. Now they are available to you through Pelican, and at a reasonable price too! Best of all, they are GUARANTEED for LIFE! (Any reported failures will be subject to analysis by Supertec Performance.)

Fits all 911 based air-cooled engines from 1964 to 1998. This includes 3.8 RSR, 3.6 Carrera, 930 Turbos, 911 T, E, S, SC, 3.2 Carrera, and even 914-6.

Supertec Performance Cylinder Head Stud Kit (sold as a complete set, hardware included), 911/911 Turbo/964/993 - 2.4/2.7/3.0/3.2/3.3/3.6L engines

Avaiable from Pelican parts SPTC-HSK-1 $624.70
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Old 03-05-2005, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by magic930
When I researched this subject for my rebuild I concluded that the ni resist ring is a safety measure needed on engines that are intended to produce over 500HP or over 1 bar of boost for extended periods. I thought that the purpose was not to prevent "lifting" but to prevent the head from moving sideways, or pressure blowing out sideways. The head studs had better prevent any lifting or you would have other problems really fast.
I understand how the niresist rings work. As I stated above, the expansion rates of the material is what concerns me. Adding a tortuous path to prevent compression leak does not change how the studs will react under tension, as a result, it won't prevent head lifting. (magic930...we are talking about running over 1+ bar of boost so lifting is a concern)

The BIG issue is that all these "fixes" appear to be band-aids. So I wanted some field data!

Henry, we'll talk. I'll give you a call.

Last edited by MotoSook; 03-05-2005 at 08:13 AM..
Old 03-05-2005, 07:04 AM
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Could someone post a pic of a niresist ring?
Old 03-05-2005, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
the expansion rates of the material is what concerns me.
I wouldnt worry, the nirosist rings are so small that expansion could be neglected.

The one Ive seen and used are an interference fit, the ring is is double beveled.

dont have any laying around for pictures.

We built a 3.8L turbo motor and used the stock crush rings, and have not had a problem ( (660RWHP@1bar)
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Old 03-05-2005, 06:05 PM
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I just had my heads and cylinders o ringed when I tore them down. I used Jose Estevez of Turbo werks to do them. They seem to be holding fine in 30+psi runs for a few of his big hitters Guess I will have to see if there is an issue at 40PSI

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Old 03-05-2005, 06:06 PM
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I decided to do a little on line research tonight and it looks like the expansion of ni-resist and cast aluminum alloy are pretty close.

http://www.asminternational.org/Template.cfm?Section=SneakPreview&template=Ecommerce/FileDisplay.cfm&file=ACF7E2.pdf

11–12 * 10^-6/°F - 4xx.x series cast aluminum silicon

10.4 * 10^-6/°F - Ni-resist type D-2B

Last edited by 350HP930; 03-05-2005 at 06:21 PM..
Old 03-05-2005, 06:10 PM
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Wanna have some fun, toss a niresist part into some liquid nitrogen, pull it out and examine it. Take some before and after dimensions. Check to see if its magnetic or not..... See if its even the same shape......Doesn't really have anything to do with our application, but interesting none the less.
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Old 03-06-2005, 06:14 AM
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Well, I spoke to Stephen at Imagine Auto about this. After our conversation, I’m not using any rings or gaskets on my heads! I will however use ARP head studs (RaceWare is also acceptable). Unless I run 1.5 bars or more, I won’t see any lifting or chattering if the studs are good and my torque values on the studs are good. I will have the mating surface of my heads cleaned up by the machinist, and when I get them back I will bed the cylinders to the heads using a glazing compound. This method has proven to be effective for Imagine Auto.

I tried calling Christian Garibaldi, but got a poor sounding out going voice mail answer. I didn’t bother to leave a message. Stephen told me Garibaldi is pretty much out of biz and has gone to wrenching on Ferrari’s. Shame…
Old 03-08-2005, 02:47 PM
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I believe Henry Schmidt does ni rings and there is an aerospace machine shop here in Tampa that does the flame ringing for Dave White's race motors.

I was originally planning on having Henry do my sealing rings but I am currently leaning towards using the local resource so I can avoid the risk of having to ship my heads and cylinders cross country.
Old 03-08-2005, 03:05 PM
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Yes, Tony. It looks like Henry can do the rings. And I wish I also had the opportunity to use Henry's studs, but my build sheet is set on that front.

I'm building one engine to run up to 1.2 bars, and I'm building another to run about 10 psi max! Normal boost for the second engine would be about .5 bars.
Old 03-08-2005, 03:13 PM
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I might be tempted to run up to 1.5 bar but since I am plannong on using 650cc injectors I really won't have enough fuel to take advantage of it.

Now that I have verified for myself that the ni-rings have the same expansion rate as aluminum it looks like I will spend the money on the added insurance.
Old 03-08-2005, 03:27 PM
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