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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: JHB, RSA
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Super Cup cam tining in 3.2l

Hi guys,
I would like to know if anyone has used 993 super cup cams in a 98mm sc setup. I would like to know what the valve lift was set to, and where the peak torque and HP is at what setting.
I am running a cr of about 11:1 with JEs.
I am trying to get the torque figure lower in the RPM range, as the motor is currently silly strong at 6500.
The motor is also running ITBs and EFI.
Any recomendations on how to lower the peak torque without sacrificing too much of my current top end.
Thanks
Old 06-18-2005, 10:51 PM
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I recommend setting them up at 2.0mm. You could go to 2.4mm if you have the room, which you should using the JE pistons. Are you sure they are super cup cams? Do you know the number on the snout of the cams?
Have you done a compression ratio check since you bult the engine?
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Old 06-18-2005, 11:06 PM
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Thanks for responding John,
I put a post on this forum some time ago, and you believed the cams to be super cup cams. If I remember correctly, the numbers were 246/247.70.
The original setting was 1.7mm. This had the peak torque close to 5000 rpm. I ten timed them to 2.4 mm and the torque peaked at about 4600 rpm. I then timed them to 3.0 mm and the peak torque is now at about 4300 to 4500 rpm.
Each time the peak torque only dropped by about 5%.
I have noticed on the track that if i come out of a corner at about 3500 to 3800 my competitors pull away slightly, but I more than make up for it on the straights.
I am just trying to be greedy, and want the best of both worlds.
I calculated the CR and it is correct.
The vehicle is fun to drive, but want to eliminate any benefit for the competition.
Thanks for the quick response.
Old 06-19-2005, 12:05 AM
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I was curious what the cranking compression reads on a gauge.
How big are the headers?
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Old 06-19-2005, 12:11 AM
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Hi John,
I will take compression readings tomorrow, and I will post additional data with intake and header dimensions.
Thanks
Old 06-19-2005, 05:28 AM
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Hi John,
I took compression readings at cranking speed with the motor cold, and all cylinders are at between 12 & 13 bar.
The headers that i use are 44 mm OD and about 800 mm long.
The intake portshave been opened up to 39mm and the intake runner length is 400mm.
Thanks for your help.
Old 06-20-2005, 09:50 PM
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12 and 13 bar is a big spread in compression, but you did it cold so its not unheard of. I would expect 13 bar or higher with the engine warmed up. Did you dyno the engine? or are the torque peak numbers generated by the butt dyno. The header might be too big for an earlier torque peak.
If they really are super cup cams you should feel the engine come on the cam around 3000 rpms, even with the big ports.
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Old 06-20-2005, 10:01 PM
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Dyno results

Hi John,
I thought that the dyno forms would be of interest.

I don't want to get involved with the dyno debate, but the figures are actual rear wheel, and do not include any correction factor. The tests were all carried out on the same dyno with similar atmospheric conditions.
The tests were carried out at about 1700 m above sea level.
Run 7 - Cam timing set to 1.7 mm lift @ TDC.
Run 9 - Cam timing set to 2.4 mm lift @ TDC.
Run 10 - Cam timing set at 3.0 mm lift at TDC.
All the above were carried out with ITB with CIS injection.
Run 18 is the rough map with the EFI fitted. The max HP is now over 200, and final set up still not done.
John, are the torque readings what you would expect from the super cup cams at the different settings?

Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks
Old 06-22-2005, 01:58 AM
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Those numbers look very good for high altitude. If the compression ratio readings are taken at the same altitude, they look better also.
The dip in the torque curve is hard to tune out. Usually its a size or length problem with the exhaust system.
For runs 7,9 and 10, do you have the aif/fuel numbers?
What kind of dyno is it?
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:17 AM
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Hi John,
The dyno is a locally manufactured one, not many of your type of dyno's in RSA.
The dyno seems to be reasonable, when cars are run on other dynos, this one seems to be middle of the road.
Dyno is mainly used as a reference and comparrison after changes are made.
On the first three runs the co% was 4 % up to 5000 rpm, and then it ran over 8 %. The 4 % is obviously more desirable. We were not able to improve the fueling at 5000 rpm, that is why I opted for EFI.
We were not able to alter the graph after 5000 with the CIS system. This only changed after EFI was fitted.
Do the torque figures at 3000 and 5000 rpm correspond to what you would expect.
By the way, this motor is the strongest 3.2l tested on this dyno, and is significantly higher than 3.6l motors.
Thanks again
Old 06-22-2005, 11:46 AM
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The dip in the torque curve looks out of place, but the curve itself looks good.
Look at this thread, the dyno sheet is for the 20/21 cams which are very similar to the Super Cup cams (IMO)
The dip is similar to yours, but I believe Steve Wong was able to tune it most of it out.
3.2L to 3.5L Dyno RESULTS
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:45 PM
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Thanks John,
The torque curves made me feel a little better.
I will be fitting a set of headers that a friend of mine has that were imported from the US. The made a big improvement on his SC and a 3.8 motor that they have.
I believe the headers are one size smaller.
I will post the dyno results early next week.
I forgot to mention in the earlier posts that all the dyno runs were on 102.6 octane racing fuel.
Thanks again
Old 06-23-2005, 01:07 AM
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Re: Dyno results

Quote:
Originally posted by 1meansc
All the above were carried out with ITB with CIS injection.
I've never heard of this arrangement (CIS with throttle bodies), could you describe it how it works a little?
-Chris
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:46 AM
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Sounds like a good idea on the headers. Where are you? and how does your 102 octane fuel compare to our fuels?
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Old 06-23-2005, 07:55 AM
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Hi Chris,
I did the mod myself. I started off with early MFI throttles with the 3.2 carrera intake manifolds on top. The 3.2 manifolds allowed for the combining of all 6 throttles. The point on the 3.2 manifolds that normally has the throttle was then connected to the CIS fuel distributor.
The advantage of this, is that with ITBs, you can then run almost any cam, without affecting the CIS sensor plate.
I then replaced the throttles with individual throttles for a 1600 20 valve Toyota Corolla.
I then replaced the 3.2 manifolds with ram tubes with air filters on top. This eliminated the restriction that the CIS sensor plate caused. This gave the change in top end power that can bee seen in the dyno reports.
The EFI also gave the ability to set up both ignition and uel maps for the whole RPM range.

John, I will post the specs of our 102 octane fuel next week, with the dyno reports.

Thanks guys
Old 06-23-2005, 10:02 AM
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SC:
Any pics of your motor?
J.P.
Old 06-25-2005, 08:04 PM
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