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goldgunner's Avatar
 
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Exhaust / Muffler Temperature?

Not just an esoteric question...

Anyone have a spec or measurement (or WAG) what typical temperature(s) would be at the exhaust manifold? Or heat exchanger? Or Muffler?

Thanks!
Jim
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Old 08-08-2005, 04:34 PM
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good question... will vary a lot depending on conditions/etc.
I know that my muffler is hot enough to almost catch my car cover on fire...it burns holes that look like they self extinguish...which is nice to see....if people get real hopped up on this question I might be tempted to take the temp measurement equip. out of the lab. at work and see what's up. We have an optical temp. tri quarter that should give some ball park numbers fairly easy...why do you want to know?

-h
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Old 08-08-2005, 04:52 PM
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Reason for the question is in regards to the continual discussion about the exhaust system fasteners: exhaust port to heat exchangers - studs and nuts, and/or cats, and/or pipes, and/or muffler bolts and nuts:
Steel and steel, versus steel and copper coated steel, steel and stainless, stainless and stainless, stainless and coated stainless, etc.

I'm in the 'technical assembly hardware' biz - read that as specification fasteners, nuts, bolts et al.

With everything thing I've read about the Porsche hot side fasteners I'm of the belief that I can come up with semi-standard nuts, bolts and probably studs in materials that will be high enough tensile at elevated temperature, non-galling, non-galvanic corrosive and without the need for either copper coating and/or anti-seize compound (that eventually 'cooks' off), AND be quite affordable.

First part of the determination is the the temperature range we're dealing with. Also, so far, no one's been able to tell me what the grade or class of material (steel/alloy) that the standard hot zone Porsche fasteners are made of - with that I could extrapolate minimum necessary tensile strength sufficient to hold the gasketed joint at the elevated temperatures. And, since I'm basically lazy and don't really want to test lab some parts...thought I'd ask...
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:50 PM
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I dont know for sure, but Id venture a guess that the studs are class 8.8 metric fasteners. The alloy and composition of those type fasteners is readily available.

I doubt they would be 10.9 or 12.9 as these are "high strength bolts"

Id bet the studs are similar to a A307 or grade 5 bolt


And I can provide for many NA or turbochraged engines, these temps are measure in the gas stream within 6 in of the exhaust valvle

Id have to take a few radiant shots to see surface temps
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:53 PM
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Good project to find out about exhaust temps. / fasteners. I've started a project to find a source of all metal flex stop nuts sometimes called prevaling torque nuts. The company that keeps coming up and I have a sample order in is SPS. I want to get some M6 and M8 flex stop nuts...I'm thinking these are perfect for engine rebuilds compared to nyloc type which are only good to 300F to maybe 350F. I don't know the price yet...I was thinking of getting some and either selling to those that wanted them or give'em to my mechanic. I contacted the SPS company and am working with an engineer there...he alos says they can make flex stop nuts for higher temps. for exhaust and turbo charger type applications. You can get the SPS catalogs on line. I can send you more info. on private email if you wish.
-h
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:22 AM
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Yes, good project.
SPS Unbrako offerings for non-standard flexloc nuts will be much to 'exhalted' in terms of required production minimum quantities and unit costs. There are other producers who will be much more approachable - so, do share any info you get from SPS and we'll work some others with that detail.

Also, the Flexloc configuration is specifically called a 'segmented beam' type locknut - this means that the top portion of the nut has very small slots (usually 6 to 8) that are then forced/crimped inward creating an area of reduced thread diameter that when installed provides a metal to metal prevailing torque locking mechanism. This configuration is preferred over other all metal type lock nuts because the locking force is spread 360 degrees around the mating male part - as opposed to other configurations typically called 'stover' or 'top lock' that may have 1 to 3 thread distortion-locking 'elements'.

Back to my original question: what are temperatures at the exhaust mating flanges? This info is really necessary to specify the fastener material, material condition and coating-if any.

As long as we're considering special production fastener items, I'm wanting to consider the option of very high temperature 'plastic' collar locknuts...not 'nylon' collars. I don't think Kel-F (PCTFE) - rated to 400 degrees F is anywhere high temp enough, but there are other potential materials. I can also have these type items run in reasonably small quantities at not to dear costs.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:42 AM
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I would think about 1400F in the primaries near the heads.
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Old 08-10-2005, 05:48 AM
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How about marking the header with a temp stick and running it around the block?

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1763461&PMT4NO=0
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Old 08-12-2005, 08:48 PM
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Right now mine is quite a ways from running around anywhere...

My bet in the guessing pool: exhaust manifold temperature is 725 deg F - about half ot the 1400 deg F estimated above.

But, that's all it is - a guess - until someone goes empirical on this.
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Old 08-13-2005, 04:00 AM
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I would bet more towards the 1400 mark at the head.
In any case, I went with stainless studs (313 stainless) and brass nuts.
I have used this combo on V8's for years and it works.
The nice thing is no rust and you can change the headers any time you like with out resorting to hot wrenches or special fluids.
Bob
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:35 AM
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I have EGT probes in the #2 and 5 headers one inch down from the head mating surface in my 2.7 race motor.

I like to keep the temps at around 1300-1325 degrees F (partly because there is a convenient 700 C mark I can easily reference to the needle). Messing around with carb main jets to achieve this at differing air densities produced jetting which matched up with what a chassis dyno said was the best main jetting. CMW had some info on its website saying that 1350 or 1375 or something like that was as hot as you should go on a NA motor, measured at this distance. It was emphasized that temps fall off rapidly with distance from the port (so I moved my probes up from the convenient place farther down in the headers to the one inch location). As I recall, they said you could go hotter with ceramic coating, and turbos were differnt as well.

Obviously, header coatings will keep the EGTs up farther down the pipe.

So there is a datum point, for what it is worth.

Walt Fricke
Old 08-16-2005, 10:53 AM
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I only let my race car see 850 to 900 deg F EGT.
Old 08-16-2005, 05:31 PM
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You can get SPS Unbrako fasteners in metric sizes? Please confirm.

Thanks,
Sherwood
Old 08-16-2005, 09:29 PM
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SPS sells metric but is trying to clean some of the stock out. I'm talking with them re. some M8 and M6 course thread beam type stop nuts. In about a week I will be back from vacation and will see about ordering. What types/sizes are you looking for? I may not be checking the forum very often this week.
-h
Old 08-17-2005, 02:47 PM
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