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Yes, I think you got a good deal on transportation, as long as they get it there in 1 piece!

400hp doesn't take much. turbo upgrade and cams should be more than enough, maybe not even that. Henry can give you good suggestions but I am sure others here can too.

I mainly see twin plugging as a way to increase compression ratio and/or boost. it allows you to decrease ignition advance basically because the spark doesn't have to travel as far. If you increase compression ratio you may have to use aftermarket pistons like JEs. I personally would like this route because I would want higher compression for better low end torque, but less top end power, but it depends on your priorities. For your horsepower goal of 400 (which is easy) twin plugging is not necessary and probably does not give a great HP/$ ratio.
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Old 09-16-2005, 05:17 PM
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I agree with KobaltBlau. A K27 turbo and a set of SC cams (or something similar) will get you over the 400 mark and still have a reliable and driveable car. Talk to camgrinder about the cam. He can regrind your cams or sell you new ones, and can give you all of the options on which cam to use. He was very helpful to me when I was rebuilding my 3.3 turbo.

Twin plugging is a way to avoid detonation with increased compression ratios and/or boost. Twin plugging by itself will not do much for horsepower, but with it you can use higher boost and higher compression which does a lot.
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2000 Boxster S w/
Tequipment exhaust
1993 Spec Miata
87 911 turbo - sold
3.4 RUF pistons and cylinders
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Last edited by vichang4; 09-17-2005 at 08:31 AM..
Old 09-17-2005, 08:28 AM
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Auto Transport - Supertec - Turbo 3.3

Thanks again guys for the advice. I am thinking cams and machine work + new turbo. For an otherwise stock 1991 3.3 Turbo motor what would you recomend in the way of turbo? Remember I am trying to break through 400HP with a very reliable, driveable build.

BTW I am waiting for Safeway Auto Transport to pick up my car. Today is the day I bid farewell to the Black B@stard and put him in Henry's hands at Supertec. Hopefully in a month or two he will be back in black! I have some more pictures attached. I will try to get Henry to take some pictures during the rebuild so I can document everything here. Wish me luck.
Old 09-21-2005, 12:06 PM
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I have to step in here and respectfully disagree with my other turbo buds. 400 hp is not so easy, and its not cheap. And you are not going to get 400 rwhp with a turbo and cams alone (sorry if I missed something in this thread). For a CIS car, you need cams, headers, additional fuel, turbo, (possible) updated intercooler, a GOOD aftermarket muffler (straight thru design preferred), cleaned up manifold and someone who knows how to tune a CIS motor. Headwork is debatable, since my car had a compression bump and produced 410 rwhp, but Brent's car had none and produced a bit more. Once you acheive 400 rwhp, you need to worry about the stockrod bolts - it will be a matter of time before they fail.

Since you have decided on a builder, follow his advice on a designed system or you are pissing your money away.
Old 09-22-2005, 08:48 PM
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Just tell Henry what you want HP goal wise and open your checkbook. He'll get you there.
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Old 09-23-2005, 07:47 AM
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Ya ya ya open the check book..... I have spoken with Henry and I am waiting for a nice estimate with performance options. Henry brought up a good point in that many of you turbo nuts out there don't have or don't care about smog testing. I gotta get registered and Nevada has smog testing sooooooo 400HP might not be in the cards for me. Plus I will probably just rebuild the stock turbo (Henrys advice). I like this guy Henry more and more and I will most likely trust what he recomends (after all I sent my car to him 300 miles away without ever meeting him). I would still like to hear what everyones input is on mods...
We have
Engine (in Henrys hands and Pictures should be coming soon.)

CLUTCH (what do you guys recomend because I need one)

Black Wheels (YES/NO) and I mean all black except for the badge which will be silver with black lines.

Has any one put video into their ride? I dont want to cut anything inside so I was looking at some of the video monitors that extend out from the radio. It looks like they might get interferance from the dash at the AC vents. Anyone done this in their car? Any one have pictures? Any other suggestions. I really need a video solution that I can glance at while driving. This is for a night vision camera setup that I mentioned in my first post. Picture this:
12:01AM
Head lights OFF
The Black B@stard is doing 140 down the 15
In and out of traffic.
Old 09-23-2005, 08:43 AM
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Your engine (and car is in good hands). I would go with what Henry recommends especially considering your smog requirement.

Clutch - Sachs spring 930 should be fine -
Wheels - do what floats your boat - it would look more menacing -

There's urban legend here in florida that a black 911 turbo was clocked doing 186 on alligator alley (between Ft. Lauderdale and Naples) it was running with all the lights off - brake lights disconnected, driver and co pilot had russian night vision equipment and allegedly 300 kilos of coke.
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Last edited by JeremyD; 09-23-2005 at 09:10 AM..
Old 09-23-2005, 08:55 AM
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Porsche Night Vision

This is no legend here my friend (and no Russian NVG crap!) Check out my web site
Thermal Infrared Cameras As I mentioned in my first post I am in the Night Vision/ Thermal Imaging industry. I am working on a project now to put a thermal imager into the side mirrors on a 911 or a nice formed pod that mounts on the roof right at the windshield. I will make this available to all. What do you think?
Check out this video
Pan tilt thermal video
This is our military pan tilt multi sensor system that we put on the HMMWV

This video has some footage from a low end system I put in a Ford Expedition
http://www.palmir250.com/Movies/SPI%20CORP%20MOBIUS.wmv

Just for fun here is some footage of our UAV system
UAV
click on the movie links.

Let me know what you guys think

PS: The only Coke I know about comes in 6-packs!
Old 09-23-2005, 09:08 AM
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Passing emissions isn't that hard with a fresh engine and the factory cat you located. I have close to 400 RWHP, but once I tune the CIS to factory specs and bolt the factory cat and muffler on, it passes the Colorado emissions at about 1/2 the allowable limits. Front range Colorado Emissions tests are as stringent as Southern California. Several 930 guys have passed without the cat with the proper tuning. They pass the visual test because the 930 cat is tucked in so well it can't be seen anyway.

There are several good turbos to choose from that will give you various levels of power potential while having a better spool up than stock. The stock turbo really isn't very good, comes on fast, and drops off just as fast. In additon, your turbo choice will not effect your emissions, the whole test is done at RPM levels below the onset of boost.
Old 09-26-2005, 08:47 PM
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I have heard this. My mechanic in town told me basically the same thing that the 911 will pass without the CAT if it is tuned and running right. Anyone else have comments about this?
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:15 PM
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3.3 Turbo burned valve broken rings

Henry now has the car. I have pictures of the carnage. It looks like I had a burned valve in #1 and broken rings in #3#4. Since I need some new parts we are thinking of going 3.5 or 3.6 (3.5 P&C 3.6 case, crank and rods) with cams, porting, new k27 and oil pump on top of a complete rebuild. I have an option here for a Polish Intercooler but I think I will stick with the German kind for this car! . I know Bad Joke.

I think you guys made the right choice in recomending Henry. He has taken a lot of time to talk to me about my options and he seems fair and honest in his opinions. I have had plenty of mechanics blow smoke up my pipe so I think I can tell the difference. So far I would recomend him too.
One question for WAYNE. Why don't you have a link to Henry over here
http://www.101projects.com/911-Rebuild/recommedations.htm
If I had found this section before I bought your book I might have went with someone else. I am glad I didn't. Lets get the man a link!


Bad valve bad bad valve


This can't be good


Why man why?

Anyone think I could have gone without a rebuild for awhile. I think I still could have gotten at least 10,000 feet.
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1991 C2 3.3 Turbo Undergoing a transformation into the BLACK B@STARD.
"If it ain't broke.....make it faster"
www.x20.org

Last edited by Infrared Camera; 09-28-2005 at 04:24 PM..
Old 09-28-2005, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Since I need some new parts we are thinking of going 3.5 or 3.6 (3.5 P&C 3.6 case, crank and rods)
Whooaa! Just because the rings are broken does NOT mean you need new pistons or cylinders. You can have broken rings on all 6 pistons and the P&Cs can be in excellent shape. And, a beatup valve is easy to replace.

But, the larger displacement and a slight bump in compression can greatly increase performance. As all the drag racers say, there's no substitute for cubic inches (or cubic liters).
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2000 Boxster S w/
Tequipment exhaust
1993 Spec Miata
87 911 turbo - sold
3.4 RUF pistons and cylinders
Euro CIS head
Old 09-28-2005, 07:58 PM
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If the P&C's are still good, spend the money on an EFI setup instead of larger P&C's. You'll have a much nicer car to drive. I've been playing with my CIS all summer. Good experience, but you realize it's down-falls.

It's a good chance your problems were caused by a lean condition, producing more heat and detonation. Your current fuel system is probably not up to the task, and rather than wasting money on CIS parts, spend towards EFI.
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3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 09-30-2005, 02:31 PM
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looks like some stupid boyz turned up the little knob too far....

are the cylinders or pistons scored?
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Old 09-30-2005, 03:36 PM
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scored pistons

I think there is some damage. I have a picture here of one cylinder but it is not the sharpest picture.


I think I want to go with bigger P&C (as VICHANG said "theres no substitute for cubes") for power not just for replacement. It has come to the following configuration
Carrera cams
3.5 p&c
3.6 case
shuffle pin case
port intake 38mm
port heads
Oil pump
hipo clutch
new k27 7200 turbo

I thinnk this is a good sound build for a CIS smog legal drivable car posibly around 370HP. My only concern is in replacing the case. I know most people here are not concerned with matching numbers but what do you think this will do to resale value of this car? I know that once the numbers on the case are found to be different it creates the impression of a modified car (which it is). How much do you guys think this will affect the value? I could go 3.4 P&C and keep the 3.3 case but is that really worth it for .1 liter improvement? I know it is not a collectable but it is an OG Turbo. I need to make a decision on Monday so I am trying to get as many opinions as I can right now.

WinRice- It says you are doing an EFI conversion soon. Can this be done with engine in car? Does the motor need to be disassembled ie new or modified heads/manifold? I dont want to do it now because of budget but might look into this as a future option depending on complexity.
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"If it ain't broke.....make it faster"
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Last edited by Infrared Camera; 10-01-2005 at 06:44 AM..
Old 10-01-2005, 06:36 AM
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When you buy a Porsche Turbo, you realize how many mind boggling options you have for a re-build. Do I go 400HP? 500HP 700HP?.........so you have to step back and regain your practical senses. I can relate, I'm at that point now, planning my winter projects for the car.

First let's start with Horsepower. When you set your goal at 370HP, is that rear wheel or flywheel? Rear Wheel horsepower is about 85% of flywheel horsepower. That's why some guys say 400 HP is easy and others (like Don) say it's much harder. 400HP at the flywheel is only 340 at the rear wheels, this is fairly easy to accomplish with mild mods. 400HP at the rear wheels is 470HP at the flywheel, this takes alot more effort. And is very close to the practical limits of the CIS injection.

At the low horsepower goals you have stated, I'm not sure why you would want to go with the expense of a 3.6 case, unless you're trading your 3.3 case and a small amout of cash for the 3.6. You're horsepower goals can be easily accomplished with a 3.3/3.4, and the cash would be better spent elsewhere.

By the way, a stock 3.3L has a 97mm bore and is actually 3299cc, the 3.4L has a 98mm bore and is actually 3367cc, so you gain 68cc, but if you have to replace the P&C's, why not go 3.4L?

When it comes to EFI, the choices are again mind boggling. You can use you stock intake manifold and change out your injector blocks to allow for the proper injectors, or go all the way to a Carrera intake manifold. For Emissions reasons, you would probably want to go the injector block route, to maintain stock appearance. The best flow is the Carrera Intake. I'm going with the Carrera Intake and a full bay intercooler to reach my Horsepower goals. There are a few kits on the market. One example is the kit developed by Stephen, Geoffrey and Kevin at Imagine Auto. Check it out.

By the way, your stock C2 intercooler is a nice one, no need to change.

My amateur advice, build a nice, fresh, close to stock 3.4L (if your P&C's are garbage) with SC or Super SC cams, port the heads, high quality rod bolts and head studs. Then spend the money on an EFI setup. If you go EFI, you can use a lot more turbo than a K27 7200, which is pretty small, except for an almost stock engine. Just changing the cams will push the K27 7200 to it's limits

With the proper combination of parts, you can easily have an emissions legal 400-450 rear wheel HP car that would start and run perfect everyday, but it takes EFI to get there.

Talk it over with Henry and Stephen.
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:11 AM
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After I got off my soap box, I realized I probably didn't fully answer your question.

You can convert to EFI with the engine in the car, but you need to determine the port size you require while you have the engine apart, and port the heads accordingly. The injector blocks can be made in various sizes. Talk over your horsepower goals with Henry and/or Stephen and determine a port size.
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1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 10-01-2005, 08:25 AM
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Smog, smog, smog.
EFI is great when smog and money are not an issue.
When building a smog motor your best bet is bigger.
Also in the previous post the owner asks about originality.
The items he listed are not visible changes so this very nice car stays more or less original.
EFI high horse power conversions rarely sell for the same price as stock configurations. Why? Has anyone ever seen a trouble free after market EFI conversion?
BTW: EFI cost at least 50% more.

400 + horse power ? Just what you need to go to the market.
We have built many 930 Turbos with 350 -380 hp and I assure you they are a kick.
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Last edited by Henry Schmidt; 10-01-2005 at 12:26 PM..
Old 10-01-2005, 09:02 AM
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All good points Henry!

If the owner wants pure originality and resale value, then build a 100%stock 3.3L...........but obviously he wants more.

There is always going to be the debate on EFI conversion. For every poorly done, troublesome conversion, there is also a well done, well tuned, problem free conversion.........and there are good examples. Even stock Motronic systems are not tuned perfectly for 100% of all conditions.

An injection block EFI conversion can easily be made to pass a visual smog check, many have, an not just Porsches, all makes. Emission Techs aren't the sharpest in the world for a Porsche visual.

400HP to 600HP doesn't make much difference around town when your off boost, they're all pretty docile. It's when you hit that first entrance ramp the fun starts.

Good debate, but what really matters is what the owner wants and how he realistically intends to use the car, everything is is just arm-chair quarter-backing.

Back to my arm-chair.
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1986 911 Turbo
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Old 10-01-2005, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WinRice
All good points Henry!

If the owner wants pure originality and resale value, then build a 100%stock 3.3L...........but obviously he wants more.

It's not an all or nothing question, there is a gray area.

....... For every poorly done, troublesome conversion, there is also a well done, well tuned, problem free conversion.........
YOU CAN'T REALLY BELIEVE THAT!

An injection block EFI conversion can easily be made to pass a visual smog check, many have, an not just Porsches, all makes. Emission Techs aren't the sharpest in the world for a Porsche visual.
Let me get this right:" do what you want and hope for an incompetent tech?"

400HP to 600HP doesn't make much difference around town when your off boost, they're all pretty docile. It's when you hit that first entrance ramp the fun starts.
A true driving fanatic can have fun in a 180 horse power Porsche on the same on ramp, maybe more?

Good debate, but what really matters is what the owner wants and how he realistically intends to use the car, everything is is just arm-chair quarter-backing.
Back to my arm-chair.
Interesting analogy: perhaps a more accurate analogy might be: The owner is the coach sending plays in from the side line. This owner is asking for help to fill his play book. The mechanic is on the field making the play happen.
I guess I'll get back on the field. Enjoy your arm-chair.
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Last edited by Henry Schmidt; 10-01-2005 at 12:03 PM..
Old 10-01-2005, 11:58 AM
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