New member, alien object made it's way into my oil pump...
 

Hello Guys

Firstly can I just say that this place is awesome, I've spent many evenings reading up on old threads and it's amazing how much knowledge is on this board. I have been meaning to introduce myself but there's just so much information on here I've never actually got around to it, until now as I'm calling on your expertise and hope you can solve a mystery for me....:)

Quick intro and background, my name's Darren from accross the pond in the UK. I have owned my '71 911 Targa for over a year now and a few months ago I bought an unknown '77 3.0 carrera engine, as I wanted to liven things up a bit, the engine required a top end rebuild which was done by a very trusted rebuilder and the install into the '71 car went reasonably trouble free. We used all the oil lines/cooler etc from the 2.2 which I had no issues with prior to the swap. After the 3.0 went in the car ran strong and was a blast to drive for a few hundred miles, then it started making a horrible noise. A quick call and trailer journey to my engine rebuilder and some diagnosis work lead us to believe that the oil pump had siezed and the shaft had sheared off :eek:

we immediately set to work and dropped the engine, stripped, and split the case, opened up the oil pump and were presented with this carnage....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132699100.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132700385.jpg

We are stumped as to what the item circled in red is (the little ba$%^"^d that caused all this), we have degreased and checked all components and nothing is out of the ordinary, so I was wondering if anyone here has any ideas on what it could be, it's certainly steel as it is magnetic.

Any ideas as i'd love to know what it is.

I'm having the crank checked tomorrow so fingers crossed that is still ok, I have also found a new pump/shaft and gearing, the top end is all ok from inspection, so I'm hoping that I've got away with this and my costs don't add up to more than a new gasket set/bearings and oil pump etc.

btw here's the patient..

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1132701617.jpg

A wild guess: oil gallery plug?

The oil sump screen should have stopped this from happening. Did you have an oil sump screen on? I guess this could have been on the pressure side of the pump. In that case this piece might have just fallen into the tank. I don't know if there is a screen in the bottom of the tank or not.

-Andy

Sorry about the misfortune, beautiful car though!

Agreed with Andy, this is way too big too have been picked up because of the oil pump screen. Was it intact? It does look like a galley plug but I can't imagine how it could get into the pump... UNLESS it got dropped into the oil tank and pulled into the suction side through the lines. That would be my guess.

Some nudge dropped that bit in there and it eventually got sucked in. Was it on the "suction" side or the "pressure side"?

Rockin car...just beautiful.

Thank guys, the item was in the pressure side, so it's anyones guess how it got there, just wondered if anyone knew what it was.

I had the crank checked today and thankfully it just required polishing, also had a used oil pump/shaft/gearing delivered this morning for a reaonable sum of money so it looks like I got away with it this time, just the cost of the pump etc/crank polish/new bearings and new gaskets, something I still could have done without but hey it's better than having to buy a new crank

I also noticed that the chains must have been replaced at some point as they have a split link on each one, does anyone know if the chains were originally one piece with no split links? if so are they expensive to replace and should I replace them while I'm there?

Many thanks also for the comments on the car, I shall add another picture to the ultimate targa thread, well it would be rude not to.

Darren

I think that thing in your oil pump was a bullet....and you dodged it. Pressure side gets filtered oil from the tank. Chains were solid originally so yours have probably been replaced. New ones at around 80 bucks for the pair are cheap insurance. Check your sprockets too.

Hi Darren, another uk pelican gets involved! this place is a fantastic source of info with lots of very helpful and knowlegable people to help you out. unfortunately im not knowlegable enought to help you out with the id of the foreign object but maybe an uprated oil pump would be a nice addition while the case is open? also, if you are thinking of going faster/revving higher at a later date then some good rod bolts? maybe a bit over the top but at least if you end up getting the bug (and belive me, it don't take much when you are hanging around this place) you will have a nice sturdy bottom end to build from.

best of luck

The alien object was definately high tensile steel, it was VERY hard and magnetic. Guess I'll let it go as one of those great mysteries.

I have ordered new continuous chains as well, for piece of mind, can only be money well spent I guess.

Thanks for the welcome from another UK'er Andy, as for the oil pump I managed to get one from a 3.2 so it should fit the task well. Your 3.3 RSR replica sounds very interesting :)

The top end has been rebuilt on my engine but I'm not too sure of the condition of the cams, I need to get them checked out. If an upgrade is available for a Carrera 3.0 with CIS I'd be interested in finding out now while everything is open. If not what would be the best direct replacemet 3.2's ? Anyone know?

Thanks
Darren

btw sorry forgot to add that everything on the 3.0 is stock apart from a backdated exhaust (which sounds glorious) if this makes any difference?

camgrinder would probably be able to help you out with cam choice. you could send him a pm

Darren: If you get new chains, GET NEW CHAIN SPROCKETS TOO!
Nasty experience, go here:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=200267&highlight=Chain+ sprockets

Lots of unpleasantness there Gunter :eek: funnily enough this did cross my mind and I ordered the sprockets as well, good insurance.

I had the cams looked at and it appears that one of them will live again, but the other is now an ex-camshaft and wouldnt be worth re-installing when everything else is going to be so fresh. So I'm on the hunt for some. It appears that 81-83 SC cams are a good direct swap for this engine but I'm thinking as it's now all in bits and everything else is ok apart from the cams then I may as well try and get a little more if possible. I shall search for Mr Camgrinder and hope he can help me.

Darren

You might check your oil level sender, and make sure it didn't come apart in the tank.

Tim in Sac

Camgrinder (John) will be able to tell you if your damaged cam can be build up (welded) and reground.
I am not sure if a 3.0 Carrera engine has the same cams as a stock 3.0 SC engine???
If that is the case, you might consider a 964-profile. What CR does a Carrera 3.0 have?
My project: Build a SS 3.2 with 98mm P/C's 9.8 CR, 964-cams, SSI's. I am keeping CIS. Bottom is a '82 SC, top is a '78 CIS with the larger intake runners. Heads were port-matched.
Nice car, Darren. Have you considered 7" Fuchs with 225's for the rear?

If one of the cams is chewed up, then could this plug be the end of one of the cam spraybars? The cam would lose oiling should this happen...

This shouldn't get into the oil pump even then, but who knows?

Thank you for the comments on the car Gunter, the carrea 3.0 in stock form has a 8.5:1 CR. I have been In communication with John who has been very helpful indeed, he did mention to me that the 964's will provide a little extra high rpm hp. I'm going to give it some consideration, although I maybe looking at some 3.2 cams on monday which apparently have the same profile as the 3.0, if they are in good shape then that will suit me, as I want this car back on the road as soon as I can without changing any of the other main components. The heads,valves,rings etc were only done 200 miles ago so I'm loath to spend anymore than what is really neccessary.

Your project sounds awesome, wish i had the technical know how to so something like that, i need to shallow out the learning curve a little and build up more knowledge, and when funds allow will hopefully embark on a real hot rod engine, as i believe per threads from wayne that the 76/77 930 case is 'the' case to have.

Re the 7" fuchs for the rear....oh yeah I've definately considered it, unfortunately they are not easily come by over here, I'm sure f I ask around some will surface but will probably command a high price, I now have two sets of deep 6's (one set anodized and detailed, the other set polished and detailed) so the sale of the polished set may fund the 7"s, or they might make their way onto this little puppy, my other interest :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads6/81133022996.jpg

Thanks again for all your help guys,
Darren

I agree, who know's :confused: ??? it's a totally solid piece of steel, i guess the reason the cam chewed up though is probably due to the pump siezure and hence no oil to spray, although saying that i did blow out the spray bars with compressed air on thursday and thinking back the one where it chewed wasn't bloked, but the oil was quite dirty, not what you'd expect from a top end rebuild after 200 miles.

Indeed, the 3.0 SC-cams are identical to the 3.2 Carrera cams.
Re-rinding to a 964-profile is about CAN$ 350.- here.
8.5 : 1 CR compares to the US SC's up to 1980. After that, the CR became 9.3 : 1.
I can understand your desire to get back on the road. Nice 914.

See if you can post a better image of the mystery part (with scale) so possibly it can be identified. Can you account for all the other pieces as to there they came from or where they went?

Keep in mind that all those chards of hardened steel from the mystery piece and oil pump gears went through the main oil circuit unfiltered. You will need to clean or replace the cooler, clean the case oil passages and pressure relief pistons, the crankshaft oil passages, the jack shaft, the piston squirters, the cam oiling spray bars, late chain tensioners, the thermostat, the oil sump tank and more. The sump tank could conceivably have more mystery pieces lurking in the bottom. There is not a screen or filter between the tank and the important stuff. Take it off the 911 and give it a through inspection and cleaning.

I would take a close look at the aluminum gear on the jackshaft and its attachment to the shaft. The timing gear on the crankshaft and even the woodruff key took abuse breaking the oil pump.

A 3.0 through the Type 911 transmission will be at or above its torque and power limit. Be careful. Certainly don’t make fast stars in first gear. You might shop for a nice late Type 915 before you need it.

Your 911 looks great. How is it under the skin? Nice 914 2.0!

Best,
Grady

Ill second all them spots Grady mentioned. the crap just keeps coming and coming. its unreal. plus three of my piston squirters were blocked. ended up pulling all of them and replacing with larger 964's. the rubbish behind the blocked ones was amazing!

P.S. Ive got a good 915 box for sale if you want to upgrade

Thanks for the advice Grady,

So far I have cleaned out one half of the case and checked all piston squirters and main oil passages everything is in order, I've also cleaned and blown through both cam spray bars with compressed air and they are ok, I will be cleaning the other case half next week and doing the necessary checks on the piston squirters etc. I will also re-check the tank and have the cooler checked out, basically anyplace where oil channels i will clean and check, which I'm hoping should cover everything.

The crank checked out ok, it required polishing and it was crack tested. I have a found another pump complete with intermediate shaft and gearing which, from inspection, is in tip-top condidtion, all other top-end parts have been degreased and are ready for closer inspection prior to re-fitting.

the reason I'm struggling to know where it came from is I thoroughly cleaned out the oil tank and lines prior to this install, the on-engine cooler came from my 2.2T which i had no issues with, the T engine was just a little tired. This 3.0 case must have been opened at some stage in it's life as it had the later oil pump installed and it's my reckoning that some idiot left something in there or dropped something in there whilst doing it and never realsied, or couldnt get it out, it probably got lodged somewhere near the pressure pump and all the moving around whislt doing the top-end rebuild dislodged it, that's the only thing i can think of.

I here you on the transmission as well, a 915 is a future modifaction I would like to make, but i know there is some hammering/cable/shifter/clutch changes to make so until then I intend on being nice and light footed in 1st gear. i do love that dog leg config on the 911 box though, it's way cool.

The 911 is a real solid car othewise, the rear lid needs swapping for exterior correctness as it's from an earlier car (with the centre bar) but it doesnt bother me too much. I like to think it more of a grand tourer than out and out sports, i've added new bilstein medium valved inserts on all 4 corners, turbo tie-rods, i have put in a momo prototipo, bf tourino recliner seats with rears re-trimmed to match, rs style door panels, but for that luxury feel i've added moch-1 front underdash/rear speaker enclosures and a set of cocomats, so i havent succumbed to the 'lightweight' brigade yet, it's a bt of a mish mash but it works for me :)

the 914 is near stock, apart from a few subtle touches, lenses, black/silver hood badge, bursch muffler with dual webers, it sounds wonderful and is such fun to drive. It actually draws more attention than the 911 in London.

Thanks for the offer of the gearbox Andy, i need to get the car running well before i think of anymore mods though.

eeek, nastly little floater.
Its one of those worst nightmares when your new engine develops foibles like this.

Tend to see things like this on badly serviced cars where for years bits and bobs sit in the bad gunky oil and it keeps them out of harms way.
Then the new owner buys the 'cherished' car, puts fresh oil in and hey presto, the floaters all come free.

sounds like you had a lucky escape