Pro Engine Builders: Ever use Wössner Pistons?

Carrera3.5L · Carrera3.5L's Garage

This is a question probably for the professional engine builders who build numerous engines, but if you're an individual with experience with the product I'd be happy to hear you're thoughts as well...

I received a catalog from Wössner, a German forged piston manufacturer in Germany. They have a pretty good selection of water-cooled VW pistons in bores that are appealing to me (and hopefully customers) but before I spend a bunch of Euros on a couple of sets to try I thought that I would ask some of the Porsche guys if they have any experience with them and can either give me a thumbs up or thumbs down.

Please don't tell me to simply use JE, I already do but am always looking for alternatives that may be better...

They claim to be heavily involved in motorsports, have ISO 9001 certification and produce about 80,000 pistons per year.

The Porsche applications are somewhat lacking, they have 356 pistons, early T, E & S pistons in various configurations but than skip all the way to the 3.6L 993 motors and beyond. Nothing for 74-89 911 or 930 applications...

Any of you guys that post here frequently (Steve, Henry, JW, Charles, etc) know anything about them?

Ralph

racing97 · 08-31-2006, 03:14 PM

I believe you are talking about Wossner (sorry I can't do the oumlot)
they produce good pistons and have a lot of 993 and Gt3r slugs even up to 104mm. I think they have barrels for some of the units maybe Poton
sleeves. The initial 3.8 for DP grand am and ALMS apps were produced by Wossner. To be honest I think they are probably as good as JE but probably not better.

cnavarro · 08-31-2006, 03:45 PM

Name has come up, nothing bad. I have never seen one (or a picture of one for that matter). I'll have to google them out of curiousity. You have other options too (more $$$) like CP, Omega, ... Can't beat JE for the price though, on a set of custom pistons, when ordering one set at a time.

Jeff Alton · 08-31-2006, 03:58 PM

They are being advertised in a full page in Excellence or Pano, can't remeber which one........

Cheers

Jeff Alton · 08-31-2006, 04:24 PM

The Racer'e Edge is the guys running the ad in Pano. It looks like copy from a catalogue but maybe give them a call and see if they have used any yet.

Cheers

Carrera3.5L · Carrera3.5L's Garage

Thanks for the info guys!

I still have friends over at PMNA, if these were used at some point on the DP/RSR motor they'll give me a heads-up on them so I'll give them a call.

Charles, I order MULTIPLE sets of JE's (I'm a distributor and use/sell more VW water-cooled pistons than anyone else) at a time, but you are right they (JE) are pretty inexpensive and only located about 20 minutes away from me...The Euro isn't favorable and inbound costs can be as much as 15% on small air shipments so these would have to be at a pretty good deal to make it worth it imo...but some of these German companies see the United States as a virtual untapped goldmine (it isn't though) and oftentimes offer amazing "partnerships" in an attempt to get their foot in the door.

I did find it kinda strange though that they don't have any "off the shelf listings" for 74-89 applications listed in their catalog...

Hey Jeff, I don't subscribe to Excellence or Pano (is that considered blasphemy for a Porsche owner?) so I can't see the ad but perhaps I'll google them to track them down and maybe someone over there will "talk shop" with me...

Ralph

P.S. - You can type a "o" with an umlaut by pressing "alt" and than 0246

Steve@Rennsport · 08-31-2006, 05:19 PM

Hi Ralph:

I would ask if they use the ubiquitous 2618 or something like Mahle's nice, dense, low-expansion forgings.

Pankl is another supplier but the offerings are quite limited to GT-3R stuff.

ANTONIO · 08-31-2006, 07:36 PM

Perfect Bore is outstanding, cheers, Ant.

Carrera3.5L · Carrera3.5L's Garage

Thanks Steve for your input, it is always appreciated...

I hate to be the poor guy in the fatherland who is going to receive my fax full of questions...

Antonio, I'm not overly familiar with Perfect Bore, but I heard through the grapevine (and take that fwiw!) that they are made in China. If this is true (I could be completely wrong!) and although the vendors in China are actively contacting people in the United States (I get at least one unsolicited email a week from a Chinese company looking to sell me something), I have had other companies in my line of work say they have bought containers of products from China and although the prices are really dirt cheap (you wouldn't believe how cheap some of these items are to manufacture), about 25% of the container has to be scrapped (without recourse) because the products have some sort of quality defect and thus are worthless...in many cases the product is so cheap that one can still take the loss on a certain percentage and still come out way ahead...

I'm just too conservative I guess, I've tried to create a running dialogue with a couple of these Chinese companies but the language barrier and the methods of doing business between the Chinese and Americans is so vastly different that I just don't trust the whole process quite yet...

Many of my other colleagues that are successful in importing Chinese made aftermarket products have a liasion that handles pretty much everything. I've looked into that aspect and they want alot of money to act as an intermediary and I just can't bring myself to pay for their specific knowledge as yet. Call me a cheapskate if you will...

If Perfect Bore isn't a company whose product is manufactured in China, sorry about the long windedness...

Ralph

cnavarro · 09-01-2006, 04:23 AM

I think the Perfect Bore product is made in the UK (someone correct me if I'm wrong). It is indeed one step above the cheap chinese crap being peddled on ebay and by various other vendors. As far as I know, the only cylinders made in the US are mine and the ones made by JB Racing.

davidppp · 09-01-2006, 04:45 AM

PB is uk-made barrels and JE pistons as far as I know.

Kind regards
David

racing97 · 09-01-2006, 06:34 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport
[B]Hi Ralph:

(I would ask if they use the ubiquitous 2618 or something like Mahle's nice, dense, low-expansion forgings)

2618 or 4032 I believe it is the same as JE it is not Mahle material
I believe JE with the new infusion of cash and Jack Sparks at the helm is really hard to beat. You can get them to manufacture your own propritory designs, you can't even get them to talk to you in Europe

regards

ANTONIO · 09-01-2006, 01:37 PM

LOL!!! China?? Perfect Bore is Formula One stuff!!!, Google it!!cheers, Ant.

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
Thanks Steve for your input, it is always appreciated... I hate to be the poor guy in the fatherland who is going to receive my fax full of questions...

Antonio, I'm not overly familiar with Perfect Bore, but I heard through the grapevine (and take that fwiw!) that they are made in China. If this is true (I could be completely wrong!) and although the vendors in China are actively contacting people in the United States (I get at least one unsolicited email a week from a Chinese company looking to sell me something), I have had other companies in my line of work say they have bought containers of products from China and although the prices are really dirt cheap (you wouldn't believe how cheap some of these items are to manufacture), about 25% of the container has to be scrapped (without recourse) because the products have some sort of quality defect and thus are worthless...in many cases the product is so cheap that one can still take the loss on a certain percentage and still come out way ahead...

I'm just too conservative I guess, I've tried to create a running dialogue with a couple of these Chinese companies but the language barrier and the methods of doing business between the Chinese and Americans is so vastly different that I just don't trust the whole process quite yet...

Many of my other colleagues that are successful in importing Chinese made aftermarket products have a liasion that handles pretty much everything. I've looked into that aspect and they want alot of money to act as an intermediary and I just can't bring myself to pay for their specific knowledge as yet. Call me a cheapskate if you will...

If Perfect Bore isn't a company whose product is manufactured in China, sorry about the long windedness...

Ralph

Porschekid962 · Porschekid962's Garage

I am not sure about PB being F1 quality or a supplier. There designs look quite a bit like the Accralite pieces and 9m or ninemeister bits. While a quality part you really cannot get F1 stuff for street cars unless your budget doesnt exist. Think Cosworth bespoke at this point.

Im not just spinning my wheels on the keyboard when I talk about F1 being in a world by itself. A couple of my friends work in that field and everything is bespoke designs and bespoke metallurgy. I am sure the PB pieces are of high quality but lets not compare them to F1 stuff. Judd/AER still compares their product to F1 and they have been out of it for years.

Wossner I am sure builds a fine product. Someone mentioned earlier that they made the P&C sets for Brumo's racing's DP car. My buddy interned at PMNA over the summer and helped run the dyno and gave me plenty of stories about the Brumo's engines. Yes they are the biggest displacement Pcar motors in DP but they had tons of problems, most if not all stemming from the pistons and cylinders.

Just something to think about

MBEngineering · 09-02-2006, 07:16 AM

HI just a bit of useless info for you www.perfectbore.com as you doubt there capability's.

regards mike

911TE · 09-05-2006, 12:41 AM

Dear Ralph,

I have no experiences with the VW water-cooled pistons you mentioned, but I made some business with Wössner concerning special pistons for air cooled racing motorcycle applications. They are doing one-offs in very good quality, price is on the normal high level for Germany (Euro 300.-for two pistons, custom made to my specification, blue-print provided). The other company for one-offs in Germany is Helmut Wahl, he uses Mahle raw pistons.

I tell you this because I had the impression, that Wössner uses American raw blanks for his pistons from Wiseco. If I look at the Wössner pistons I got, they show a stunning similarity inside to what is sold in Germany as Wiseco pistons. Mahle blanks definitely look totally different inside. (I talk about forged pistons)

This in no way means that these are bad pistons, they work without any problems in our motorcycle racing engines, it is just to say, that you would probably buy back something that partially came from your own country.

Sebastian

chris_seven · 09-05-2006, 02:15 AM

Woessner pistons are normally manufactured from 4032 Alloys and I would expect that they are manufactured to high quality standards.

I think that the debate concerning 4032 and 2618 is quite interesting and the ideal choice of material must depend on the application.

I think that for normally aspirated street engines 4032 is probably the ideal choice but for high performance Turbo engines 2618 would be preferable.

I suspect that 4032 pistons are normally produced in a T6 Temper but 2618 would need to be T61 to avoid shape changes during machining and this process is more difficult to manage than the process used in the production of 4032 pistons.

I am fairly sure that Perfect Bore production is centered in the UK but providing quality standards are maintained I wouldn't really have any problems in buying components sourced in China. Perfect Bore's reputation is such that I would be confident that any parts they sell would be to the highest standard regardless of their origin.

Parts for the 'European' Apache helicopter are certainly being sourced in China and there isn't really any reason to assume that just because its made in China it must be poor quality.

I am sure that just as in the UK there are poor quality parts also being made in the States.