What are options for twin plug for EFI?
 

Gents -- what are your thoughts on most cost effective option for twin plug for EFI on 930? ...thinking motec ecu.

thx,
Joe

Re: What are options for twin plug for EFI?
 

If you are pretty good with electrics, the Megasquirt is very cost effective. I did the twin plug and EFI conversion on my 930 engine recently. Hobieboy has also recently completed his conversion using a similar setup. If you are going to have someone else do the conversion, make sure they are familiar with the ECU you use.

I've not been hearing such great shakes about Megasquirt... Primarily because support is a real issue. Since it's "public domain" there's no one to call if something isn't working right.

Joe, I am also moving to EFI next year more than likely and an considering Haltech and Autronic as two good options. SDS is another good choice, though I prefer the ability to use a laptop to program it, which SDS does not have.

However it sounds like you have EFI already.. If that's a case the easiest option IMO is Electromotive or a twin-plug distributor ala Steve Weiner/Andial/Burn Bros...

Good to see you at Nationals BTW. I've PM'd you my number if you want to talk about it and share ideas.

Supertec/BurnBros distributor, MSD and you're good to go.
Of course if old school feel doesn't matter, it's hard to beat modern electronics.
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As far as the EFI goes, Motec is the number 1 choice. The older M48 ECU is still way ahead of most systems out there. If you really want the best and latest ECU you should use the M600. Great software!
Whatever the cost....yes they are expensive...the support is always there if needed....the data you can log and sort through with Motec Interpreter is also very important, especially on a turbo engine.
As you know, Porsche engines are expensive to rebuild, so it is important to get it right the first time with no exceptions.

Thanks guys... answer to few of comments:

Henry -- on your twin plug, do you make one with sensing wheel that could go into ECU? Looks like top rotor contact may not be long enough to adj timing electronically.

yes will be doing myself (BS/MS in EE), heck of a long time ago though and don't do much of it now.

nope, do not have efi yet. ...been tooling around out there in CIS.

was thinking M4 ECU.

We build these distributors to use both mechanical advance (custom to every engine) and vacuum advance & retards.

Because they operate on MSD ignition boxes, stand alone or integrated boost retards are available.

Cost effective and Motec are not usually in the same sentence. Haltech can control a street car very well. I just installed Autronic on my dads car and my friend who's father owns a shop here on the west coast and has done plenty of Haltech installs said the Autronic was loaded with tons of features. I consider it a bang for the buck, it also datalogs. Autronic is also very popular with the turbo rx7 crowd.

Another way to go is do fuel now but leave ignition to a dizzy. Then once you have it running switch from dizzy to full electronic. Also do you plan on using a stock turbo intake?

regarding dizzy, yes that's an option i was thinking about ,and i could run it electronically with ecu. already running msd. ...would just be out twin plug for now.

looking at 3.2 carerra intake. ...anyone happen to have one with fuel rails laying around?

btw -- what are folks thought on not going twin plug... what do i loose not doing twin plug since would still be inductive with nice long spark and can run bigger gap.

Joe,
As Mike said earlier, I have just Megasquirted mine. Still in the fine tuning & sorting out last details stage but already survived 3 track days where I tuned the car :)

If you are "handy" and don't mind delving into electrical details, MS IMHO is very cost effective. The software is quite stable for me and from looking at other mid priced ones (e.g. DTA, SDDS, ...) I'm not sure if they have vastly superior hardware packaging. Can't comment on their design but MS serves my purpose for my track car.

a dizzy is ok but too dizzy if you are going to move into modern fuel and spark managment.
For the $$ spent and if you ever buy a new dizzzy cap and rotor you might as well go complete managment of you choice

New distributor cap and rotor $510. On ebay In the overall scheme of things, that's not much.

New technology offers great strides in performance but old school Porsche has never been beaten. I love that old time religion.

3.2 liters, two valve, 7.2 ;1 compression, 1.4 bar of boost, 740 hp. 20 years ago.
No electronic spark control, no fuel management. Just a big boost knob.

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Henry,
Is that car a 935/77? That would make that car 29 YEARS OLD!!!!
NOT 20.
Even more impressive...Gotta love the old school religion.

BTW...Did you notice that you posted at 935 a.m.?

New time religion: 500$ gives you assembled Megasquirt and EDIS for price of one distributor.

$500 will also buy you a tired Yugo. So what?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1159046372.jpg

LOL! Now that is funny...

Don't be confused, I think that is the price for the cap and rotor, distributor not included...

Cheers

Bs is Bs in any form. try a a dizzy in modern form No contest, Loser, To Try to say a dizzy is better then say just for fun Electromotive is just plain bull headed and stupid. If a Dizzy is better then Electro, Mega S, SDS and others is silly. They would have No excuse for existing. Just to push your product with such non sence is a relgion of its own..self consuming ,non carinng, money orentated, self obsorbed tunnel vision..yup your right, is old school burn in hell relgion.

Once again, you bring such logic, eloquence and intelligence to the forum. How could people of good intent do without your valuable insight ?

"A sighn of a week argument is to change the subject" ?? ( thats your quote ) and if you are unsure of your self..just try confusion and insults. Hennry ...thats your eloquent sales tecnique?...Oh gosh hennry and my intelligence Too ???.....them there is real good facts....for a one sided argument....

Distributors and mfi pumps are for the historically aligned. Also those who want to plug and forget for the most part once they finally get their product. Electronics on the other hand are far and away the wave of the future and it has been here for years.

If you want performance and the ability to be able to change your setup without needing a new custom mfi cam pump then go efi. If you want old school nostalgia then by all means opt for a dizzy and mfi pump or carbs. AFAIK most motorsport teams went to efi in the 80's in order to better control fuel delivery and increase efficiency. Group C rules pushed fuel efficiency. MFI pumps were great in racing and WWII but modern electronics have surpassed them in every way.

If you want to build a flexible motor, put out good numbers, have the ability to change on the fly and save money than you better go with total electronics.

Distributors are ok for spark but go with a later twin rotor unit instead of a one off 12plug piece for replacement parts sake. The money isnt worth it unless your a concourse nut job.

Best of luck and hopefully you make the most power you can.

Hello!

Yes, 500$ can buy you a Yugo, a car that will take you from A to B. It will also buy you a distributor cap to antique and obsolete ignition system or a fully functional and programmable EFI with built in ignition.

I don't understand why would someone want heavier, mechanical, non-adjustable and less reliable ignition system just beacuse some racer car happened to have one during the 70's??

Porsche themselves converted to EFI as soon as technology was mature enough. Motoronic was used on 956's and 962's troughout the 80's. TAG McLaren F1 cars used EFI from beggining of the 80's.

There is no point of using dizzy nowadays apart from nostalgia value. Unfortunately, many good mechanics are still pushing old stuff. Probably beacuse they didn't catch up with electronics.

Thats what I think too..they have to be hvy and hang out on the back of the eng is the wrong place for a P car. the rear is where the problem is so anyway to move it forward is a good thing.
I have to admit they look cool...but for adjustability a management sys. is the place to be. J.M.O.

Goran,

Using that same argument one could say we should get rid of our old, obsolete cars in favor of a fancy new Honda.


Guys, JoeMag obviously has enough discretionary income to consider the Motec so let's get back on topic and quite beatin yer chests ;)

JoeMag,
The blade on the rotor is based off of the Jaguar rotor that used electronic timing. I retained this feature just in case. A custom dizzy can be made to do what you are asking. You will not be able to use super high voltage.

A distributorless ignition system will allow for more secondary voltage and wider plug gaps. It will also promote increased wear to the secondary ignition components.

It will boil down to your personal preference since each choice has it's own virtue and vice.

Cheers everybody! SmileWavy

I am not an expert but can anyone tell me which Porsche engines that had twin plugs 1966-1997 used anything but a distributor.
In my research it looks like all two valve/twin plug engines used a distributor. For that matter which Porsche two valve engine used anything but a distributor?
Motronic, or engine management in general and distributor are not mutually exclusive.
I believe most Motec systems I have even seen use a distributor.



IMHO: afterburn, your envy is showing. It seems half your posts attempt, feebly to attack other people.
Why is that?

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1/2 my post ?? you certainly embelish that number. Feebly ? when wrong is wrong and to say nothng would be -feeble -. I dont call people names, I calls em as I sees them, just the facts please.
Lots of people use this board to get their education, some use it for their agenda.

Afterburn,

First let me say that I am sure you are a decent guy, most Pelicans are. I believe that somewhere down the line Henry has offended you. Your agenda now seems to be continuing to grind an axe at least when it comes to Henry. Can't you guys just hug and make up??? Please, for the rest of us.

Loser, ...........plain bull headed and stupid. .......... silly. .......self consuming ,non carinng, money orentated, self obsorbed tunnel vision...........


World class engines builders come to this forum to offer their advise and you offer criticism and venomous attacks.

"Call them as you see them " ? I think the algae on your aquarium is too thick to see through.

Afterburn: the result of too much hot sauce ?:)

Aaron (Burn-Bros) you could be right.

afterburn if I have offended you, I apologize.

Solowerks makes a great point.
I wish to know if there were any Porsche two valve engines built with anything but a distributor.
Even the last 993 with Varioram EFI had a distributor.


Here are a few Late engines with twin plug distributers.
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Today, I bought a complete MegaSquirt II + all extras for 530 bucks just to play with it on my next project car. If you want to solder it yourself, it will probably cost half of it.

It has a built in MAP, can run low-impedance injectors nativly (Flyback PWM for peak-and-hold is built in), accepts input from my WBO2 and has Autotune feature.

Now the good stuff: it can run single-coil and distributor nativly (in case you would like to keep that dizzy) or interface with Ford EDIS.

One of those connected to twin Ford EDIS-6 is THE least expensive way to do it. Two EDIS-modules from a junkyard are probably cheaper than one NOS distrubutor.

That would give you fully programmable twin-plug EFI + ignition for less than 1000 bucks (hell, less then 500 if you want to assemble it yourself).

Sure, it is batch fired and doesn't have fancy features but is perfectly good solution for N/A engine.

GUI-based software is also available online for free.

You want to keep it retro-chic with twin plug dizzy? No problem, buy Aarons jag dizzy and you don't even need EDIS modules, just twin coils and you are good to go :)

P.S. No watercooled 911's use dizzy's...it's all coil-on-spark stuff. Why didn't they use it earlier? Dunno...maybe beacuse they were conservative. They clinged on K-Jetronic at least 8 years too long as well ;)

Very good and informative write-up Goran.

the Coil in spark stuff is great as it eliminates all problems associated with the incredible amounts of voltage being produced today. Some cars have coil voltages around 90,000 volts to run the heated film defrosters...yikes.

One reason I've considered using Henry's 12 plug distributor on my stealth efi build is the thought that my smog tech will be less freaked out seeing a 12 plug distributor, than none at all. It's nice to have options, thanks Henry and Aaron:)

Yeah, you can always controll dizzy with aftermarket EFI and make it look stock.