What is a 'rebuilt engine'
 

After wading thru the thread in the classified on this issue I began to wonder what is the true definition of a rebuilt engine? A top end and reseal? Just Re-ringed or new P & C's? Is it a top end with new valves, rockers, guides, new P/C's, cams, oil pump, chains, sprockets in hopes of building another engine that will go another 100k miles plus.

runs the gamut from clean and paint, rings and bearings, to a perfect $20K job with every single wear item replaced and all proper machining done. pig in a poke without paperwork, and sometimes with. rebuilt should probably be written "rebuilt".

Ron:

Thats REALLY a great question. The term "rebuilt" as used in the context of automobiles has many different interpretations in the automobile industry and almost all of them are clear as mud.

I wrote something on this subject, http://www.rennsportsystems.com/1.html that addressed this problem.

The aviation business has clearly defined such terminology as: "rebuilt", "overhauled", "new", "zero-time" and such things, but our industry has left that to the service providers, vendors, and the general public to define these terms as whatever is convenient depending on circumstance. :)

John is right and one MUST get the paperwork for all services & parts when evaluating any engine that claims to have been "rebuilt". In some cases, that very record is suspect (MM) so ultimately it depends on the integrity and competence of the shop & personnel that did the work.

Steve / John ..thanks for your valued input on this subject. We always see claims of ' you can rebuild your engine for XXX dollars'. After actually having a respected and honest shop rebuild my engine I was way into XXX dollars in new parts alone. No doubt the key factor is a paper trail of exactly what went into the motor and who did the work. A rebuild in a home workshop won't be as prized as one from a Pro shop like those that you guys operate.

I think the two most overused/variable meaning words used in connection with Porsches are "rebuilt" and "original". "Rust free" could probably also be added to this list...

One thing for sure:
Regardless of the actual definition, it will often be misused terminology

and if not documented with pics, bills and/or a reference check of the re-builder... pretty much worthless...

So a 'home rebuilt' motor is worth slightly more then a MM engine. In the end, the additional cost for a reputable shop's labor may pay dividends when its time to sell.

I respectfully must disagree with that statement, Ron.

Let's take my own case, because I know it the best. It's ultimately irrelevant because I'm NEVER selling this car or its engine so a valuation will never come into play, but humor me.

I have receipts for $8,000 in replacement parts and labor by the finest Porsche-specific machine shops in the country.

I have a detailed log of the part number and condition, in many cases to the thousandth of a millimeter, of every nut, bolt, seal and part in the engine, along with detailed disassembly, cleaning and plating, reconditioning and reassembly photos. Many of which have been posted here. That will all be accompanied by a dyno sheet from the engine's break-in.

Contrast that with the shoddy work performed by certain professional shops, including the one that rebuilt my engine 25 years ago with black RTV sealer on the case parting line and cam boxes, mismatched rocker shafts and with a ring gap so wide that I found five broken compression rings on the teardown. "Professional" in name only.

"Slightly more than a MM engine" implies slightly more than zero. In my own case, and in the case of many, many other "home rebuilders" here, I think a credible case can be made that there should be absolutely no discount whatsoever associated with a PROPERLY done and DOCUMENTED rebuild.

Well John so goes the question.
It is true that a home builder can do a job comparable to a professional and in many cases the attention to detail is even better. That said, experience is something you can't get from a book or forum.
There are things you learn on your second engine that you didn't know on your first. Imagine how that changes on your 200th or 400th engine.
The professional with a track record offers a peace of mind (for the consumer) that you don't get from a DIY home builder.
I would suggest that you may even spend more as a DIYer than a reasonable professional would charge.
While I admire your attention to detail, it is easy to go over board. Measuring to the nearest "thousandth of a millimeter" takes time and adds no value. It is similar to balancing a flat six to tenth of a gram. It seems better than 1 gram but the engine will never know the difference. We balance to a 1/2 a gram but that is actually a waste of time. The factory calls for 4 grams and at 4 grams you could argue that is close enough.
It is true that a DIYer's passion for a job well done adds value, It is also true an engine built by a passionate, experienced professional adds infinitely more value.

Just MHO here, but Henry really makes some excellent points and I must wholeheartedly concur,.... :)

Its especially important when it comes to racing engines that spend the majority of their time above 7000 RPM.

"Professor" Cramer is a VERY careful, detail-oriented and methodical individual and with all respect, might be the exception not the rule about homebuilt engines, at least from what I've seen to date. :)

LOL, if I had my engine rebuilt by either of you gentlemen I would certainly demand a premium when the time came to sell. Ditto the other "excellent" shops: the confidence inspired by reputation goes a long way toward being able to strongly support the seller's valuation.

Henry, the reason I measure to the thousandth of a millimeter in many cases is because that's what the factory spec calls for. That and the fact that as an amateur, my measurment technique will undoubtedly have errors-- but I figure that by shooting for the center of the bullseye I'm more likely to get it on the paper. You're definitely right about the additional time and money involved, but economics of time and cost aren't priority #1, it's a fun learning experience for me.

Steve, you're really on to something with your second paragraph. From my own research I've learned that there are literally dozens of items that if improperly done, can prove catastrophic, and that's for a stock rebuild.

Factor in the more precise tolerances required for a high-rpm race setup and the professional's experience is even more differentiated from the knowledgable amateur. One area that occurs to me (you both may think of others) is piston-to-head clearance. A pro that's done it hundreds of times probably has no trouble confidently running a very tight clearance: for an amateur, this is inviting very expensive noise.

That being said, all professionals are not created equal: Henry, you don't say whether it was an amateur or a pro, only a "mechanic familiar to the Porsche community" that perpetrated the RTV nightmare illustrated in this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=248146&perpage=20&highl ight=rtv%20community&pagenumber=2

The RTV nightmare was the product of a DIY home builder who has been known to rebuild engines for Pelicans and the unaware public at large.
This mechanic was actually consulted on proper engine building techniques by our host for his 911 engine rebuilding book.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181845777.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181845786.jpg

Egad. Score one against the "amateurs."

but i'm sure it didn't leak, right?

John, sorry I was painting with the ol' broad brush. I've seen some amazing examples of talent on Pelican but I would guess that pelicans with your talent and attention to detail only account for a fraction of the membership. The term rebuilt is tossed around almost as much as low ball dollar amount for getting the job done. I for one wasn't shocked by the 20K figure that B.A. quoted. If you think about it there is no way MM could 'rebuild' an engine for $3800. I doubt a home grown 'rebuild' can be done for that amount. Andial wants that for a set of mahle p and c's.

You have hit the nail on the head with price. MM quotes $3800 or so for a rebuild and BA's quote has $7800 labor. Both extremes are ludicrous, although I must say if you know the real cost going in a shop should be able to charge what they want. Around the high performance world there seems to be a "perception of excellence " attached to a high price.
There are way to reduce the cost of a 911 engine rebuild (low overhead, in house machine work, reduce build time do to experience and the most important & least appreciated, knowing what parts need to be replaced and what parts don't). The last item can only be learned through experience. Either yours or some that is borrowed. That is where this forum works it's best. The freely shared experience of experts willing to help.

The definition of rebuild varies from builder to builder.
As I see it you have many layers of repair.
Reseal = disassemble and reassemble to repair leaks (mainly gaskets, seals and gluing technique)
freshen up = add bearing, rings, rod bolts, valve inspection to an engine of know quantity. IE: 10hrs on a race engine
rebuild = return engine to factory specs. Valve job, new pistons as needed (at this point up grades make sense)
remanufactured = restore engine to as new condition (within reason, reusing main components)
Remanufactered 2.2 911"S" engine.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181923450.jpg

An important aspect Henry alludes to is the “how much is too much” situation. “Almost” anyone can build a really nice engine using all new parts. The art of engine rebuilding in knowing what needs replacing, what needs reconditioning and what is still OK to use. Part of that is experience, part is measurement skills, part is the willingness to research and ask questions. Updating is an important aspect.

Thirty+ years ago a bunch of us (pre-internet) single-handed kept AT&T long lines in business discussing these issues, sometimes daily. Today you have this Forum.

An advantage of Pelican is you get a combination of experienced pros (Steve, Henry, John W and more) plus some very skilled DIY builders (John C and more). This Forum also has many “amateur pros” who do professional level work but aren’t in the full-time business. Some become the best shops. Add to the mix the first-timers who ask great basic questions and you get a good combination of skills and information.

A good shop has (in addition to experience) the advantage of technical information, parts availability, specialized tools and more, including an engine dyno in many cases.

An advantage a DIY build has is time. When you DIY, you can stop (or even go back) and deal with any issue that comes up. Out of necessity a shop must be efficient building engines or no one could afford them. This is done with experience, parts & services availability, dovetailing projects (having more than one in process at a time) and efficiencies of scale.

Of course there are shops and DIYers who are incompetent, misdirected or just plane crooks. Chris’ Rant: Hack mechanics (and possible lesson?) is a good example and the above mentioned shop … well. Often bad results happen when someone runs out of time or money and “cheep-shots” the reassembly. This one reason a through PPI is so important.

A very important aspect of DIY is the satisfaction of having done it yourself. Henry may be able to build a 901/05 as well as John, and even in a fraction of time but that isn’t the reason why John is DIY. John may even spend additional money out of choice or abundance of caution. There is nothing wrong with that.

Steve brings up a good point. DIY shouldn’t be considered as a cost savings project. In fact it often becomes more expensive. Too often this is from not recognizing a problem or underlying cause, not replacing something that should be replaced, or error. This is the experience Henry is talking about.

If someone DIY gets into an engine and finds the challenge too great (sometime just the time available factor), a good shop is an ideal safety net. It wasn’t infrequent that we got an engine in boxes. It is a little more difficult because you don’t get to see the condition on disassembly first-hand.

Steve’s point about race engines is right on. As soon as you try to exceed “normal” limits, the care and experience necessary goes up exponentially. Even more so as you start to mix-and-match parts, use custom configurations and parts. This forum is full of discussions about deck height, compression ratio and more.



Back to Ron’s original question, probably the best examples are in Wayne Dempsey’s Engine book and Bruce Anderson’s book. Both have great check lists and examples. Many more engine projects are well documented on this Forum. As I have said many times, a first-timer benefits greatly from having ALL possible information sources. That includes the FWM, Spec books, Technik books, Bentley, Cramer’s, Haynes and more. Finding and editing information from the forums is very important. This can just be excerpt copies of the portions relevant to your project. This is where making your own personal loose-leaf manual is beneficial.

Ron, I think John & Steve (and you) are right on; every rebuild (DIY or Pro) should have documentation of every minute detail. With convincing documentation, a good DIY can be every much as good and valuable as a professionally built engine. With the ease of digital imaging and burning a CD, every rebuild should have accompanying documentation. This should include the disassembly and diagnosis, all the processes, the measurements prior to assembly, the assembly process and the resulting dyno run-in and testing. Even though John C isn’t intending to ever part with his 901/05, his is well documented here for everyone’s benefit.

What is a proper rebuild is highly dependent on age, miles, condition, engine type, original components and intended use. A 400K ’69 911T is very different from a 70K ’83 911SC with Mahle Nikasil. An original 2.0 901 is very different from a MFI 3.5.

I think a “proper” rebuild is, As Steve says on his site; “For a street engine, we feel that a proper rebuild should last as long or even longer than the original OEM powerplant.” The advantage we have over the original Porsche engineering is many years of hindsight. The discussion is how to achieve that in every situation.

There is also the appropriate consideration of the cost of a proper (read expensive) rebuild compared to installing another engine.



That said this is the fun of Porsche engine building “art.” I know the fun that guys like Steve Weiner, Jerry Woods, Dieter Inzenhoffer, Chuck Stoddard and I have had over the 30+ years. John Cramer is doing that in the DIY arena, as many others have.

The great feature that Wayne provides us is easily sharing this collective knowledge and archiving it for future generations.

Best,
Grady

It looks like we had simultaneous posts.

Henry, well said.

We should not get too detailed as to specifics as every engine and situation is different. The most difficult part is no one knows what is necessary until you get into the project. However this is very useful to define the processes levels and to realize what (unexpected?) issues arise.

I wouldn’t call “Both extremes are ludicrous.” Both are possible but simply extremes. MM chooses a “bait and switch” business model. Bruce and I are both retired 20+ years from doing this honestly.



I agree with Henry’s presentation: Reseal, Freshen, Rebuild, Remanufacture. I would add Top-end and Build to the list. There is also a lot of overlap, particularly if some problem is discovered.

I would define the list as:
Reseal = Disassemble and reassemble covers and components to repair leaks (mainly gaskets, seals and gluing technique). This might include valve covers, chain covers, oil return tubes, thermostat O-ring, cam oil lines, sump gasket, breather gasket, crankshaft seal, flywheel seal, oil cooler O-rings and others. It wouldn’t include leaks at the cylinder base gaskets, chain housing-to-case and similar that require disassembly of the basic engine.

Top-end = Add reconditioning of the heads and cam drive area (tensioners, ramps, etc.) This would include Resealing. This would not include (normally) removing the cylinders.

Freshen = Add bearing, rings, rod bolts, valve inspection to an engine of know quantity. IE: 10hrs on a race engine. In my posts I usually refer to this as a “Maintenance rebuild.” This is for keeping a good engine in top form and preventing any problem from getting out of hand. I do this on my race engines at 25 hours. There is benefit on a street engine at 75K miles, hotrods less.

Rebuild = Return engine to factory specs. Valve job, new pistons as needed (at this point up grades make sense).

Remanufacture = Restore engine to as new condition (within reason, reusing main components). This is the extreme rebuild where the case is rebuilt and all new wear parts.

Build = This is where you build a “new” engine. Occasionally this is truly new with all new parts but usually is a combination of spare parts (both new and used) to create something that Porsche never sold. This is the ultimate fun “art” of Porsche engine building.


When considering a 911 engine repair, a critical issue in the decision making process is the uncertainty in the condition and what is necessary. If someone came to me today with a running but otherwise unknown engine, the first words out of my mouth would be “This can be VERY expensive, $24K and more.” A DIY and a honest shop customer should hear that number up front.

The next decision is to do inexpensive and non-intrusive investigation. That could include measuring the cranking compression, cylinder leakage, inspecting the sump & oil filter, removing covers for inspection, bore scope the combustion chambers, etc. Here you get to find oil leaks, broken cylinder studs, cam drive condition and more. These are all things that can be done without removing the engine from the car and, with a few gaskets and some oil, the 911 is still drivable. You guys can offer estimates of cost of this. It is labor intensive so DIY is cheep.

The advantage the pros have is how clear their crystal ball is (and it is always fuzzy). I think the proper approach is to look at all the common issues and consider the worst case (say 95% level). I think it unreasonable to consider the “norm” (average) because you are wrong 50% of the time. It is absolutely wrong to “hope for the best.”

Once an engine is disassembled it cannot be restored to its former running condition – you are committed to some level of repair. Some of the junk we see probably is from someone “just put it back together” where RTV is less expensive than a new valve cover gasket. Here we are talking about proper repair as a minimum and “best in the world” as the goal.

The lists in Wayne’s and Bruce’s books are great. We used to have a 6-page legal size list. Everyone should do their own engine-specific list. There is an advantage to making multiple lists for various levels of repair, updates and improvements. This is what a good shop does to generate an estimate. No matter how careful and detailed you are, there will be unforeseen issues. Remember, Murphy is in charge.

The list above is fraught with potential problems. I’ll pick an example.
You start a Reseal and you find broken head studs. You get into this repair and while you have the chain housings off you discover a bad jackshaft sprocket. The only correct repair is a Rebuild. Big difference. It doesn’t matter that this is a shop setting or DIY, the repair needs to be done properly.

When I discuss my 25-hour race engine number, I am regularly asked if this is necessary. My answer is “What is the alternative cost if there is a failure?” The same is true with any repair. Cheep-shot and shoddy work comes back to haunt. Real pros won’t do this. Quality DIY shouldn’t either.

Best,
Grady

Grady , you really should write a book some day
you can obviously write , and get good information in readable sentences... and you OBVIOUSLY have plenty of experience for us to learn from...

for real, write the book allready.. and tell me where i can pre-order the thing!
:D

Wow..thanks guys. That was pretty much my feeling on the subject. I was hoping you big bats would weigh in and this thread might be a valuable reference for someone when they are confronted with the word..rebuilt. I think in my own case I wound up in the area between a rebuild and a remanufacture but I'm very pleased with the results...my accountant isn't.

Stijn,

Flattery goes a long way. Thanks.

I am publishing – just in small bits on Pelican.

This suits my health situation. I look at a thread (or multiple threads on a subject) as a “book”. Posts are paragraphs or chapters. I’m my own editor with proof reading from the Forum. Wayne is the most friendly publisher (ask anyone who has had to deal with a print publisher).

I have the material. I write everything in Word and then paste to forums and email. I’m up to eighteen 750 page Word documents. I can use Find on key-words.

When I have something to offer I do so in complete form (well, as best I can). I try and write in complete sentences using normal American English. I try and not use too much jargon and idiom. The most important reason is the international aspect of the Pelican Forums. Translation programs work best with complete simple sentences.

I am collecting technical info and images for a transmission book. I hope to brow-beat Wayne into authoring and donate my stuff.

BA has finally got me to help with a 3rd Ed. I was one of “…whose request for anonymity…” in the prior two editions Acknowledgements.

This already exceeds my ability to get things done these days.


OK, back On Topic.

Lets not quit here. There is a lot to be learned about the philosophy of rebuilding a 911 engine. There are pitfalls. There are also great benefits from the proper approach.

There is no substitute for careful planning. Research allows you to “know your stuff.” When dealing with a shop (or anyone else), good 2-way communication is paramount. When DIY, keep others involved as a “reality check.”

This Forum allows a unique possibility. As Einstein proposed, we can do “thought experiments.” We can build imaginary engines, work through the pros-&-cons, evaluate the costs & performance and more. It costs nothing other than expending some brainpower. There are many here who have “been there and done that.”

Best,
Grady

New here this is first post.

I think "rebuild" is the most misused term on the internet, and else where. I guess it has been well covered here in this thread.

This deal about who does the work "rebuilding the engine" is good.
There are many stories here on the net about many so called professional shops turning out junk. Just look at all the complaints about dealer service, I'm talking about all manufactures of cars and other manufactured items as well. You have to remember one thing about a company doing work on something they employ people to do the work in most all cases and it does not matter who it is, and how much experience they have they can make mistakes, and actually if they are people that have worked on the same type of item many times, they become over confident, lax and open themselves up to mistakes. Also most all these outfits are of course on the day shift schedual, and since most all people on that shift are literal walking zombies during most of the day, no wonder there are so many complaints. I have been around many shops and worked with many people I have seen it all.
As far as who is going to do a better job, someone that does it at home or someone that drives say 30 miles to work in the morning and has to sip coffee all day long to stay awake, and dreams about the drive home and what ever else is happening the rest of the evening. And then has to deal with what ever shop politics are happening that day.
Then there is a guy like me, I have the experience and can do the job at home, and will take the time it should take, not hammer it together as fast as can be to meet a certain time frame, or else the shop looses money attitude. But then like some say here gosh your a nobody and the quality maybe questionable. Ah before you say that stop and think.
I could be the guy doing your engine at that high priced shop you are having it done at. Would you rather me do the work at home where I can control the environment as far as cleanliness etc. and be relaxed and enjoy doing the work. Or would you rather me doing it at the shop where I might be po'ed at the boss or the customer, and bounce the parts all over the place, drag the parts across the concrete floor, get mad and beat it with the biggest hammer there I could find to make it fit. Hey I have seen it happen. I worked at a shop one time and watched the supposed top guy screw up some cam bearings doing the job fast, yeah it got done fast, it also came back. I have seen people with many years experience gouging parts using improper tools or techniques, but are they going to replace that messed up part that may cost them thousands? Don't think so. I have seen many so called top guys that really aren't.
And as far as a DIY guy. It all depends on what he knows. If your not a machine person, (which by the way not many mechanics are machinists.) and lack mechanical apptitude, then you are better off not trying it. Some people have it in there blood, and some just do it cause it was a job to get into. Personally I don't care to let anyone work on anything I have, they just plain aren't careful enough. They don't respect the parts.
Then there was a mention about the time factor. And how experience will bring down the time. Well I'm sure the guys doing F1 racing engine builds are pretty experienced at it. Yet they brag that it takes about 2 weeks to do it. And here one fella mentioned about 10 hours or so?
That is the key reason to stay away from a big shop or any production rebuild outfit. They push push, you don't get quality with the push push attitude.

Sorry to rant so much.

Engguy,
Welcome to the Forum SmileWavy
You will find a lot of good info here.

I think you mistook the level of experience and dedication in most Porsche shops. Few work on Porsches because of some huge profit motive (its not there) and few laggards last long.

As in any industry there a few sour apples. Typically the market weeds them out. In general, the Porsche community is blessed with competent and enthusiastic people with proper motives. In fact I think Porsche has probably the best in the world.

Most are involved because of the love of the cars, the technology and the great people. Yes, businesses have to make money to be in business. Yes, customers want good service at a fair price.

Please don’t mistake our criticism. Our self-analysis is designed for all of us to understand how to make the system better. As you may note in my posts above and in other threads, the issue isn’t shops vs. DIY but competence vs. lack thereof and honesty vs. crooks.

I used to employ 9-14 people in my Porsche only shop several decades ago. I can tell you first-hand everyone was on the same page trying to do the best possible work. Non-enthusiasts, slackers, incompetents, etc. never got hired.

The local Dealers have people that I find as top quality, well trained & supported and intent on doing the right thing. I know both the management and the technicians. I have some issues with PAG/PCNA policies but that doesn't involve these issues.

Many of our local shops are my former (20+ years ago) employees. All operate exceedingly competent and ethical shops. No one around here is a “zombie”.

I think you are talking about “flat rate” work. We all know how that can be abused. That isn't typical with Porsches. Even with my family's Toyotas, I discuss this flat rate issue with the service writer, service manager and technicians. Never a problem with that.



With your good intent and qualifications, you should have great success as an independent shop owner or home mechanic. Welcome. :)



Best,
Grady :D :rolleyes:


PS; for those not familiar with “flat rate”, this where every “job” or “procedure” is charged to the customer with a fixed number of “hours”. This is supposed to give the customer a fixed price no matter how long the job takes. This is the norm in the auto repair industry, particularly all franchised auto dealers.

The abuse occurs (as Engguy notes) when the tech “beats” flat rate by doing the job in less time. This is encouraged by the service manager (who also gets a commission). This allows the mechanic to (typically) charge for 60+ hours while working only 40 hours or less. The Dealer and tech make money at the customer’s expense. Further abuse occurs when something difficult is encountered; there are additional “jobs.” The customer never gets a break.

I solved this problem by charging a high hourly shop rate, paying the mechanics a high salary or hourly wage and charging actual hours worked. Everything we did was to do the best work possible and efficiently. If a mechanic made a mistake, I covered the cost of the re-work, not the mechanic. The job got done correctly. Those issues were addressed at salary review but peer pressure was far greater and there were few mistakes. When there were winter slow periods, everyone still worked full time (although many took an occasional long weekend to Vail or Aspen:D) as I would build shop engines and cars for inventory. Everyone benefited.

The whole point of my system was to have the work done correctly and everyone was treated fairly. I didn’t make as much money as possible but I slept at night and can stand proud.
G.

I am certainly not an expert or "professional" engine rebuilder, but a mechanic with a lot of machining experience.

I just wanted to say that engguy makes a good point about the machinist aspects of doing a job properly, not to mention the point about the "shop politics" being a problem.

However, I will not discount or ignore the professional environment especially when you are dealing with racing. We are talking about lives involved. Of course, we are talking about lives being involved even on our freeways and roadways.

I guess my point is, a good professional shop with a manager/engineer who cares about his people will make a big difference for the atmosphere that these engines are being built in. By creating an environment of quality minded individuals, as well as, good decent mechanics whom come forward when they make a mistake, because we can all learn from our mistakes, makes for a better product output to the customer. Point and fact, I have made some mistakes which I wish I never had, but I can guarantee you I will NEVER make them again. Some were very painful to admit and stomach.

Banging on parts and installing them into a customer's car is serious negligence IMHO. Hell, it should be criminal.

Thoughts?

Whoops~!

Sorry, Grady. I did not see your last post....Internet very slow here in Eastern Washington today for some reason.

You have said it best.

EdSmileWavy

No matter what kind of shop it is. If said employee would rather be doing something else, meaning looking forward to quitting time or friday, then watch out. I work with people that act like they really know whats going on, but in reality they don't know much. So I know good an well what a professional shop is like, only yeah this is not automotive related, actually much more important, aviation related.
Anyway in the end you would get a much better job done by a guy like me, that loves doing it, and will spend the time that no shop is going to spend. The biggest fear for some people in having someone like me doing it. Is they want some kinda of warranty, and figure someone doing it on their own won't offer that. Thats a price thing though. And in the end how many professional shops even honor their warranties? Here on the net are many stories of dissatisfied customers with car dealers and other such professional shops. Still you can blow the horn for the shops, but in the end, its still hurry up get it done attitude. How many shops would let me spend a month doing a rebuild on an engine at say paying me $25. an hour?
Where at home the price can be agreed on and time is not a factor, unless the customer is in a big rush.
The bottom line is the shops can not afford to pay for quality, if they did they couldn't afford the lease on the building, any kinda profit means turnaround, yeah you say no ones making a bunch working on these cars, but if that is true then why do they charge so much then????????
And why so many returns and dissatisfied customers in the automotive repair business?

Somehow my initial question, 'What is a rebuilt engine' has evolved into the questioning the skills of the builder. I guess what I was really asking was..if you were buying a motor that the seller claimed was rebuilt, what would you expect to see on the build sheet?

Rebuilt means all parts refurbished to original tolerances/clearances. (I would recommend reading Wayne's book if you havent read it yet.)

I think of it as two types essentially containing as follows:

Top End Rebuild: Head/Valve job: One to six valves and valve guides; New head studs; New rings, fastners. misc oil/fuel lines/coolers/ignition/intake/ .

Complete Rebuild: all of the above plus rod bolts, bearings, chains. More machine shop labor required.

Regards,

Bernard,
I've read Wayne's book, Bruce's book, Dr. Porsche's book etc. I'm glad you posted what you did because I think that is what adds to the confusion with the term..'rebuilt'. So, lets say we have an SC with 125K on the clock. It leaks and has started burning oil. So are you saying that one would measure the wear items, replace what is out of spec and then call this a rebuilt engine? Somehow I look at this as a repair.

Hi Ron:

Not to get off track, but the skills of the builder are every bit as important as the parts list since all the new components in the world will not help if the engine has not been fitted and assembled properly,....:)

I've written some things about what constitutes a rebuilt engine here: http://www.rennsportsystems.com/1.html that you might find helpful.

Thanks Steve..I understand that this is a loaded and somewhat 2 prong question. I was curious to see what the congregation had to say.
..Ok, Steve..thats a great read. Did you just add that??

If they claim the motor is rebuilt I would expect a complete rebuild. A top end rebuild may be termed "its had a top end". Oh and after reading what I wrote earlier, you could add rod bolts to a top end job, because I know some guys like to have those replaced when doing a top end.

Regards,

Oh no,.....I wrote that 4 years ago when various folks called me asking about rebuilding their engines and wanted to know why we were more expensive than MM,....:)

Steve is right on mark. His Rennsport Systems does it correctly.

As I said above, “rebuilding” an engine with all new parts is easy – still it requires skill and knowledge.

The problem is that almost no one wants to afford a rebuild with ALL new parts. The “art” of rebuilding is the cost-effective balance between replacing everything in sight and the criminally negligent by some who specialize in advertising and BS.

So … how do you tell what level of “rebuild” someone is claiming? Clearly some are honest, competent, and skilled rebuilders – including Dealers, independent shops and DIY. We also know there are others.

The reputation of the builder tells a lot. The parts list gives a good indication of the thoroughness of a rebuild. Important is the documentation of the critical engine dimensions.

I think the term “rebuild” has to do with what is necessary to return the engine to reasonably like-new condition. In most situations the builder can better the original Porsche build because of 30-40 years of hindsight and improvements. Just as the original engineering is a compromise between competing engineering & cost aspects, so is any “rebuild”.

We seldom hear about the gazillion of proper and successful rebuilds. Everyone goes home happy. It is the failures that catch our attention. It is very worthwhile to examine these failures.

I think it instructive to examine every failed situation. This allows both the customer and builder (even if the same with DIY) to learn and realize how to improve the situation.

To end on a positive note, with good communication on the Forum, almost anyone can have a successful experience.

Best,
Grady

TTT....just stumbled upon this jem....

best explination I have seen on so many levels