20/21 cams

[911crazy]

Will the 20/21 grind cams fit in the standard euro piston carrera 3.2 engine? Thanks

[Candelaria]

Yes, good grind, Candy.

[sus911]

How sure are we?
Is there DEFINITELY piston to valve clearance and no grinding required?
Who out there has definitely done this cam profile on stock Euro/ROW 10.3:1 pistons?
Check these out but nothing definitive:
stock 3.2 Carerra engine out
Cams for 3.2?

cheers,
Phil

[alphie]

I can say from personal experience that the mahle max moritz upgrade (98mm 9.8:1) pistons do have piston to valve clearance problems. I had to have the pistons machined. These pistons are designed for CIS.

[sus911]

Bump......
Anyone with experience on stock Euro/ROW 10.3:1 pistons with this cam profile?

[drsimonwong]

Sus911,

I have the DC20 (from Dougherty Racing) installed in my 3.2. My mechanic has checked clearance for my new but stock Mahle's P+Cs. Haven't fired her up yet, but in the next week or 2 my car will be back on the road again.

John also wrote to me confirming this before I purchased them:
"The DC20 will fit the stock pistons and the JE pistons._
With the higher compression ratio, you can step the cam up a little.
Depending on where you want the powerband. The DC20 will give you a
3000 to 6500 band, and pull to 7000, with 9.3-1 cr._ If you use 10+
cr the powerband will come in lower, 2500 or so.
John"

I believe this is very similar to the Webcam 20/21?
Simon

[drsimonwong]

I double checked. I think John's DC19 is more similar to the the 20/21 than his DC20 which I have. Not sure if that helps.

[sus911]

Any news on the build and the cam clearance Simon?
Even better, how does she go?
Phil

[drsimonwong]

It's been a long long long time coming. Simple top end......becomes a 10 month REMANUFACTURE.

What we thought were broken head studs ended up being....12 new valves and guides, 24 rockerarms, new regrind of camshafts, new Mahle piston and cylinders, new oil pump, new intermediate shaft, new timing chains, new head studs, rodbolts, all new bearings everywhere plus a full transmission rebuild with new 2nd gear and all synchros, distributor, fan housing....and more that I can't remember.

I was putting out 234hp and not using any oil so no signs of problems. But everything was worn bigtime and gauged and cratered. My mech thinks dirty oil and detonation with poor fuel.

I managed to keep the costs down to about half due to buying everything from the Pelicanparts and various other suppliers but so far its $20k in parts alone......

Now about halfway through I kinda lost it with my temper and confronted my mech about his original $12k all up estimate. When I settled down I realised sometimes life sucks but you just have to dig deep and get on with it.

He's now making it his life time best ever effort to kinda make up for things and I have to say it's becoming the most impeccable remanufacturing of the perfect engine I've ever seen.

He factory trained (Weissach, Germany) so it's literally a factory remanufactured engine!

It's so clean it sparkles! I'll dig up photos when I have them sent to me (he's been documenting the rebuild for me) When it's done it'll also have a lightweight clutch pack, SSI's and M+K exhuast.

Right now we are putting the ancillaries back on so it'll be in the car next week.

He's measured the cam clearance and it's fine so you won't have problems if you go with John's DC20. I didn't use the spring valves John makes as there was a manufacturing glitch that ended up with a defective batch so my mechanic ordered a new set of stock factory springs instead. Hopefully this will still work well but I loose a little safety factor for misshifting.

I've got wevo and rennshift parts so shifting is pretty clearcut here.

I'll keep you posted if you like.
Simon

[drsimonwong]

It's been a long long long time coming. Simple top end......becomes a 10 month REMANUFACTURE.

What we thought were broken head studs ended up being....12 new valves and guides, 24 rockerarms, new regrind of camshafts, new Mahle piston and cylinders, new oil pump, new intermediate shaft, new timing chains, new head studs, rodbolts, all new bearings everywhere plus a full transmission rebuild with new 2nd gear and all synchros, distributor, fan housing....and more that I can't remember.

I was putting out 234hp and not using any oil so no signs of problems. But everything was worn bigtime and gauged and cratered. My mech thinks dirty oil and detonation with poor fuel.

I managed to keep the costs down to about half due to buying everything from the Pelicanparts and various other suppliers but so far its $20k in parts alone......

Now about halfway through I kinda lost it with my temper and confronted my mech about his original $12k all up estimate. When I settled down I realised sometimes life sucks but you just have to dig deep and get on with it.

He's now making it his life time best ever effort to kinda make up for things and I have to say it's becoming the most impeccable remanufacturing of the perfect engine I've ever seen.

He factory trained (Weissach, Germany) so it's literally a factory remanufactured engine!

It's so clean it sparkles! I'll dig up photos when I have them sent to me (he's been documenting the rebuild for me) When it's done it'll also have a lightweight clutch pack, SSI's and M+K exhuast.

Right now we are putting the ancillaries back on so it'll be in the car next week.

He's measured the cam clearance and it's fine so you won't have problems if you go with John's DC20. I didn't use the spring valves John makes as there was a manufacturing glitch that ended up with a defective batch so my mechanic ordered a new set of stock factory springs instead. Hopefully this will still work well but I loose a little safety factor for misshifting.

I've got wevo and rennshift parts so shifting is pretty clearcut here.

I'll keep you posted if you like.
Simon

[drsimonwong]

It's been a long long long time coming. Simple top end......becomes a 10 month REMANUFACTURE.

What we thought were broken head studs ended up being....12 new valves and guides, 24 rockerarms, new regrind of camshafts, new Mahle piston and cylinders, new oil pump, new intermediate shaft, new timing chains, new head studs, rodbolts, all new bearings everywhere plus a full transmission rebuild with new 2nd gear and all synchros, distributor, fan housing....and more that I can't remember.

I was putting out 234hp and not using any oil so no signs of problems. But everything was worn bigtime and gauged and cratered. My mech thinks dirty oil and detonation with poor fuel.

I managed to keep the costs down to about half due to buying everything from the Pelicanparts and various other suppliers but so far its $20k in parts alone......

Now about halfway through I kinda lost it with my temper and confronted my mech about his original $12k all up estimate. When I settled down I realised sometimes life sucks but you just have to dig deep and get on with it.

He's now making it his life time best ever effort to kinda make up for things and I have to say it's becoming the most impeccable remanufacturing of the perfect engine I've ever seen.

He factory trained (Weissach, Germany) so it's literally a factory remanufactured engine!

It's so clean it sparkles! I'll dig up photos when I have them sent to me (he's been documenting the rebuild for me) When it's done it'll also have a lightweight clutch pack, SSI's and M+K exhuast.

Right now we are putting the ancillaries back on so it'll be in the car next week.

He's measured the cam clearance and it's fine so you won't have problems if you go with John's DC20. I didn't use the spring valves John makes as there was a manufacturing glitch that ended up with a defective batch so my mechanic ordered a new set of stock factory springs instead. Hopefully this will still work well but I loose a little safety factor for misshifting.

I've got wevo and rennshift parts so shifting is pretty clearcut here.

I'll keep you posted if you like.
Simon

[sus911]

hi Simon.
I'm back from o/s finally.
I'd love to hear the latest...............
regards,
Phil

[drsimonwong]

Phil,

Well i"m finally back on the road!!!! Car is transformed. My mechanic did an amazing job.

The engine was tight initially but after running 1500km it's loosening up nicely. I did a relatively hard run in from day one. Drove gentley every day for 5-10 minutes to warm everything up then 2nd gear rolling flat out acceleration 2000-5000rpm then immediate release of accel peddle to allow engine under resistance to decelerate back to 2krpm. Repeated 10 times. Did that for the Frid, Sat and Sun. Then pretty much the same everyday in shorter sequences depending on where I was going. Increased to redline at 1000km.

My engine feels really really really strong. Heaps of torque from 2.5rpm. Pre rebuild I dynoed at 235hp. It's noticably strong even at 1500km with more torque from 2k and up.

The cams are excellent. There is grunt from 2krpm and it runs to redline without letting up. Still doesn't rev as quickly as it did, but that's the rings still bedding in. At 1000km when I began to redline, the engine freed up heaps.

Downsides......the cams at idle are a little lumpy. No issues with stalling or such, but you can hear the slight unevenness. It's also much touchier on light throttles under 2k rpm. Jerks a little on light throttle and I now find it easier at low speed to just slip the clutch and not touch the accelerator. That works well because of the torque increase.

The noise volume is also markedly up. Very loud in fact. Have one of Ben's M+K 2in1out on SSI's and it significantly louder than before the rebuild. Not sure why, but I'm replacing the muffler with a Dansk stock or one of Ben's new quiter versions. Haven't made up my mind yet.

My mechanic also did an amazing job on the transmission rebuild. I can easily slip into 1st, even on the move! No baulking into 2nd,ever! Other guys have driven my car who have 915 boxes and are amazed. I do have wevo/rennshift bits in it though.

I'm swapping the wevo transmission mounts back to sport mounts as the noise level is too high at the moment and I've decided to soften up the springs a little as I've decided to lean away from pure track car to more of a road/track car. Will be swapping out the 23/30mm torsions to 21/28mm.

Anyway back to the cams. I think they are a great improvement. My mechanic is really please with how they perform and once I've dynoed the car I"ll get Steve Wong to reprogram my chip and see if he can reduce some of the lumpiness and low speed problems.

Definetly give John an email about his cams.

Simon

[efhughes3]

Simon: How is the lumpy sound a downside?!?! I love the sound at idle of a cammed motor.....

I've had mine redone by Dougherty Racing Cams to his DC19 profile. I start my build in about an hour, I can't wait til the finish.

[drsimonwong]

I think I'm sensetive to all the noises from my car at the moment. Since the rebuild the noise volume from my muffler is off the roof. Plus the wevo trans mounts transmit a good deal of noise, and my footwell blowers are both squealing.....plus lumpy sounds tend to attract the scrutineers at club meets when you are running stock class..:-)