megasquirt on 911 engines

[snowman]

I purchased all the latest Megasquirt kits. I am a EE and would like to see how it goes togather as well as how well it works on a 911 engine.

At this point its going togather well enough, but the the instructions can get confusing as they constantly refer to things your NOT working on, ie other versions of megasquirt, which have nothing to do with the one your doing. Sometimes this is very very flustrating as the note states it will fry the processor if you do this. FRY THE PROCESSOR! Gets your attention so now you have to research EVERYTHING to see what they are talking about to see if it realates in any way to what you are doing. First one didn't , at least I don't think so at this point. They tend to do this kind of thing like your intimate with every comment they ever wrote about every version of the thing, which there are at least 4 or more at this point. Which version does what? I am not sure at this point. They did start out stating the purpose of Megasquirt was a LEARNING EXPERIENCE, that it is.

As to using megasquirt on a real racing engine at this time, I do not think so, not at this time. Why? Well it lacks pretty much every important control needed to prevent frying the ENGINE. No knock control, no ignition control, nothing more modern than early 1970's tech. A lot of discussion on what it MIGHT do someday.

I will continue to update this thread as I progress with the kits.

In summary at this point the main problem is way to much info, especially the irrellivent type. Parts fit well and going well otherwise up to the first test point, the power supply.

[JohnJL]

Hi Jack,
I'm also going through this now...I have a question around your later comments...I haven't personally implemented them yet, but the V3 Megasquirt II kits and software do support ignition control and there are several people posting there who have done it. I believe Mike B here has done it with EDIS.

I also believe others have implemented knock control using units scavenged from other vehicled and triggering ignition retarding when it triggers.

Good luck, I'm sure we'll both learn a lot in the next few months.

[Wayne 962]

I really feel that the MegaSquirt system is really just a hobbyist, techie system, and not really a good alternative for real-world. Noah's made it work, but he spent hundreds of hours learning about stuff just to get the engine to run right.

On the other hand $2K spent on a TEC-3 system will get you running very quickly, and you'll actually have fund programming your engine, instead of trying to learn how to program the system.

-Wayne

[Porsche_monkey]

I find their web-site drives me crazy with options and versions and different links. I would really like to try it but, I can't even work my through all that junk to figure out what to buy.

[len911]

Has anybody ever installed this system? I've been following them for some time. Seems well put together and reasonably priced. Lou

http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html

[Porsche_monkey]

There's a thread in the regular 911 section, lots of posts there...

[Mike Bonkalski]

I feel Megasquirt is a solid aftermarket engine management system for someone that has some understanding of the principles of EFI and understands how to tune a vehicle. I think anybody expecting "plug and play" from an aftermarket engine management system is in for some surprises.

If someone is uncomfortable with the assembly of the different Megasquirt componants, assembled and tested units are available from many vendors at very reasonable prices. So don't let assembly scare you away.

There is no "programming" of the system necessary. You may have to upload new versions of software, but this is common with many new automotive electronic devices, LM-1 for example.

I agree the operation manuals are not the best out there, but when used along with the web board - www.msefi.com - you shouldn't have much trouble getting things rolling.

I have not had any issues with tuning and the feedback provide by the system has not left me wanting for more information. The process of tuning is similar to other aftermarket engine management systems. It is properly done on a dyno, however software is available that will analyze your datalogs and depending on the parameters set up by the user, will recommend a new fuel table. This can get the user a decent, streetable tune. Would I hit the track with this state of tune - probably not, but it would be adequate as a daily driver.

With the Megasquirt-n-spark firmware and Megasquirt II you have the following capabilities:

12x12 fuel tables
12x12 spark tables
DualTable code
injector staging code
Rev limiter
Overboost protection
Mappable Air:Fuel Ratio target for use with wideband O2
Coolant temp timing advance
Inlet temp timing retard
MAPdot accel/decel enrichment
Anti-rev / Traction Control feature
Over-run fuel cut
Afterstart Enrichments
Cranking /Priming settings
Hybrid Alpha-N
Air Density Correction

All ignition options require some mechanical or electrical work
Ignition control options:
. No ignition (fuel only)
. Distributor for even-fire 2 stroke 1,2,3,4 cyl and
even-fire 4 stroke 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12,16 cyl
. Ford EDIS
. Dual Ford EDIS (e.g. 2 EDIS4 modules on a V8) TEST
. Dodge Neon crank decoder
. Ford TFI
. GM 7 pin HEI
. Toothed wheel decoder
. Dual wheel decoder/2nd trigger
. GM DIS
. MSD 6A
. Direct Coil Control
. Bosch 0 227 100 124 'igniter' module

Hardware changes needed for:
Switchable tables
Boost control TEST
Water injection control
Dual EGO sensor support
Shift Lights
Launch Control/Flat shift
Realtime Barometric Correction Outputs 1, 2, 3 and 4
Knock sensor input
PWM idle for use with variable valves TEST
Nitrous control (min rpm, new timing map or fixed retard)
EGT logging
Tacho Output Pin
Mass Air Flow Meter use a MAF for fueling calculations

Is it the be all, end all for aftermarket engine management - no. But it does a lot of things very well and shouldn't be overlooked because it isn't one of the "big names" we are all familiar with.

[Mike Bonkalski]

Here is my setup:



2.7RS-ish motor with 46mm TWM 3003 series throttle bodies and 21lb/hr Boxster Injectors. It is controlled with a Megasquirt ECU/Relay board combo. All of the wiring is color-coded and labeled to allow for easy trouble shooting. The ignition is a Ford EDIS-6 distributorless ignition mounted in a location where I could use the stock plug wires. It is currently driveable and goes to the dyno next week to dial everything in.

[hobieboy]

What a timely thread I've just purchased a MSv3 from Tbitz and will be installing it on mine over the winter; after I finishd my "forced" rebuilt (yes - I blew at least a vavle on the track chasing a GT3).

My take is that: start with fueling control then add ignition; i.e. one step at a time. I also heard lots of negative comments about MS but I think as Mike said, it applies to pretty much all EFI systems - a lot of tuning & EFI understanding is required. The main difference IMHO is that you can find a tuner with other name brand one vs DIY.

Of course, I still haven't done mine yet so this is all based upon my research so far & I certainly hope that the system is track capable as that's where my car spends at least 90% of the time

[kenikh]

Converting from CIS, I'd go fuel first then spark. On a carbed car, I'd go ignition, fuel, ignition.

[snowman]

What I have found is that the ULTRA megasquirt, now under development and with no specified end date will address some of the issues of knock control using obsolete techniques and take up some of the slack that is now possible with other peoples add ons to magasquirt. The real updates, eg uiing full sequintial injection, coil on plug, ionizion sensing circuits for individual cylinder control of everything needed are not even in the works yet.

Because the info and site is so disonganized and confusing I am not completely certain of whats what. I would welcome any info that helps clear up what the megasquirt can and cannot do.

The engine management learning is excellent. After you finish and implement any of the megasquirt systems, you will understand how, at least on a mechanics level, modern engine management systems work. Basically this system can replace the carbs but leave the stock ignition system in place. After that its more up in the air as to what the system can really do. If you do the megasquirt sucessfully you will have no trouble upgrading to a tech or motec system and will most likely understand what they need to work properly.

Again this is my preliminary thoughts. We will see how they develop or change as I progress.

[tbitz]

If your engine is unique (cams, intake, pistons, etc...) you need to do some tuning. If you think SDS, TEC-3, or some other aftermarket units magically get around that your in for a surprise.

MegaSquirt is rock solid. I've been running with it for a number of years now.

If you go with MegaSquirt (on your own or via my kit) I provide a base configuration that will get you started and driving down the road right from the get go for a stock 911.

You can then fine tune to get the most out of it, but I know folks that are still running on the base configuration I supplied and loving it.

The number of 911 owners running MegaSquirt is steadily growing and it won't be long before a configuration for every possible 911 combination will exist.

Cheers,

Tony

[snowman]

Tony,
In a race car, where everything must run on the ragged edge, or else you won't win, is there any REAL benefit from being able to control individual cylinders? If so, approx how much is there to be gained, or lost if you do not do so? That and knock control are my real concerns about megasquirt.

If the answer is above 1 percent, it is a concern to me. I would guestimate the answer to be about 3 to 5 percent.

[beepbeep]

There are very few aftermarket EFI's that have intergrated knock-detection.

Haltech, Motec, SDS, Autronic etc...they are all bread-and-butter fuel/ignition systems in their usual configuration. Also, it's very hard to develop universal knock detection system that will work on both aircooled 911 engine and watercooled 4-cylinder engine. Every engine is different and pinging will not sound the same. Amplitude and frequency of overtones will vary depoending on material used in block, cylinder configuration etc.

Manufacturers have big bugets and can afford extensive tests to record pinging sounds and develop elaborate DSP-filters in order to accurately detect knock...but it only works for that very engine. That's why I find most of aftermarket universal knock-detection systems a bad alternative.

To make things worse, aircooled 911 engines are inherently noisy...it's hard indeed to make DIY knock detection for them unless you have deep pockets.

Only way of safely detecting knock is by using ion-detection in cylinder. Saying that MS is bad beacuse it doesn't have this feature is wrong as there is just one comercial ECU that incorporates this: SAAB Trionic.

It all boils down to this:

MS is perfectly capable ECU for all but race applications. It does what it is supposed to do: inject fuel into cylinders accordning to few sensors and pre-programmed maps. It's batch-fired, for sure, but it actually doesn't matter. Most early Motoronic systems were batch-fired as well. Sequential injection won't give you more power, but it will make engine somewhat cleaner at low revs.

I have never seen aftermarket EFI-installation on aircooled 911 engine with working knock-detection.

[JohnJL]

Hi Goran,
Usually agree with most you post (hey, that rhymes!) but sequential fire is a documented MS feature. It just isnt used by most people since most of its benefits are, as you say, lower rev efficiencies. Then again it looks like the majority of MSers aren't doing it to achieve a clean vehicle. I'd venture more than half do it for drag, circle- or track racing indeed.

I've also read a post on the ms site where someone bolted a "bridge" across each cylinder bank and bonded a knock sensor to each bank, so that a misfire on any cylinder would be sensed. Then its just a matter of calibrating your chosen sensor to a lower level of sensativity so MS doesn't mistakenly retard under normal noise. I know I've read where someone posted they did this.

Anyway, MS2 is surely for the "hobbyist" and "do it yourself-er," but what the hell, we're on a a Porsche Engine Building site!

[kenikh]

Originally posted by JohnJL
I've also read a post on the ms site where someone bolted a "bridge" across each cylinder bank and bonded a knock sensor to each bank, so that a misfire on any cylinder would be sensed. Then its just a matter of calibrating your chosen sensor to a lower level of sensativity so MS doesn't mistakenly retard under normal noise. I know I've read where someone posted they did this.

Anyway, MS2 is surely for the "hobbyist" and "do it yourself-er," but what the hell, we're on a a Porsche Engine Building site!

I'm pretty sure that motor was a 3.6, which came with the bridge and knock sensor from the factory. Since the sensor is already tuned to the motor, it was supposedly very easy to implement. It's much harder in other applications, although I wonder if LN Engineering has ever considered putting the knock sensor bridge bosses on all of their cylinders? It should work...

[hobieboy]

Originally posted by beepbeep

MS is perfectly capable ECU for all but race applications.

Goran, why do you imply that MS is not suitable for race applications?

Snowman, from everything I read/research, at WOT there's no benefit to sequential. Sequential is definitely better for getting better fuel mileage, low RPM situations.

[beepbeep]

Originally posted by hobieboy
Goran, why do you imply that MS is not suitable for race applications?

Well if you want anti-lag, programmable boost levels, telemetry, data logging and heavy-duty encapsulation of electronics I guess you'll have problems with MS.

When I say race I don't mean DE and auto-X:ing but hi-budget stuff

[hobieboy]

Goran - gotit You made me nervous for a minute...

Yes, MS is "short" on telemetry nor have real-time datalogging that can be used to affect self-adjustment of fuel/ignition in real time, but short of Motec, most others dont neither

Your point on heavy duty encapsulation does worry me though... I'll see what I can do to beef that up. Maybe Tony can help since its his kit?

[Porsche_monkey]

You can get your boards dipped or tropicalized which should reduce vibration breakages.