3.0L build up spec'ng...HELP!!

[911 tweaks]

ok, I will admit it, my head is spinning when I think of all of the options I can do with my stock 3.0L.
So, in trying to spec out the build sheet, how about if I reverse engr this. I seem to do most of lifes things backwards?... well that is what my wife says!!

Anyway, here is what I want to use as a basis for cost control, however, someone may convenience me otherwise and that is ok. (ie sell this and that and buy so and so set up/parts)

1. 78' or 82' 3.0 case, stock (2 long blocks of different miles to choose from)

2. 3.0 crank and conn rods (have)

3. 930 oil pump (have)

4. pmo carbs, size?? (need to spec & buy)

5. early & late SC heads (have)

6. twin plug heads & possibly modify for 10.5:1 c/r (need to do)

7. twin plug dizzy?? (need to buy)

8. twin plug holes in lower valve covers (need to do)

9. cylinder size?? (I need to spec & buy maybe)

10. piston size?? (I need to spec & buy)

11. cam?? (I need to spec & buy)

12. ssi heat exchangers (have)

13. finned elephant oil line & wide mouth cooler (have)

14. modified stock oil tank w/ baffel (have)

***OBJECTIVE: I am trying to build a motor that will pull from 0 to 100 mph.
* I have no problem giving up 7k+ rpm for lo end grunt. Actually, I don't want
to spin past 7k to help the lo end.

* If I do a 3.2 Short Stroke, 10.5:1 c/r, bore & plate 3.2 cyl to 98, JE 98
pistons **(dont these have the breaking problem??**), I am told I can get
~260-275 hp and lo end grunt.

* If its a 100mm or 102 nikies to make a 3.3 or 3.5 short stroke, 10.5:1 c/r,
use 3.0 crank & rods, closer to 300 hp, lo end grunt?, a lot more $$ here as
I would need to buy new nikies @ ~$2800 on top of the JE's @ ~$1500.
This option is ~$1500 more than the 3.2ss as the 3.2ss would use 3.2 cyl's
bored & plated to 98mm @ ~$1500. Bore case spigots @ ~$300. Any
option will have case line bore checked, new head studs, rods re-bushed &
all internals balanced w/ flywheel attached, gasket set,... Pistons will need
to be bought either way.

* I also know about the stock 3.6 option, however, that is even more $$ than either of the 2 above... but maybe that is the only one to achieve goal?

* I have several transmissions, lsd, wevo gate shift, wevo bearing retainer & gears to make up most of what would be needed in the 915 area depending of course on the power the spec engine going to be.

Based on what I "think" I want to use, how would you spec this engine to have lots of lo end torque, excellent throttle response and excellent acceleration?

Thank you all for your thoughts and ideas of what hopefully has worked for you or you know of your suggestion working.
Bob

[TyFenn]

i don't know but it must be pretty freakin' cold in plymouth right now.

if no one answers, i can refer you to someone in framingham who, in my opinion, is very straight forward and honest.

...I grew up in Boston (and went to BC High - have some friends still down your way).

[joetiii]

Originally Posted by TyFenn

i don't know but it must be pretty freakin' cold in plymouth right now.

Not really cold on my side of the state right now. Shoulda ? asked that last week.

I'm planning my 3.0 upgrade too, though not to this extreme. My short geared long hood will be happy with 250 hp.

[patkeefe]

You may want to rethink the cost control part. PMO's Nickies and pistons, twin plug is about $7.5 big ones there. Add about another $1500 for machine work. Add in Raceware hardware, some other reliability stuff...Pretty soon, you'll have a $12k 3.x liter with 250HP. That's low mileage 3.6 conversion price range.

Stick a turbo in it!

[911 tweaks]

Tyfenn... spill brother...what and whom do you know? Any ideas on a build? Where did you live before the move west?

Joetiii... any ideas on a build? Do I need as I am stating to get the lo end grunt, great throttle response and such with the big engines? I think I am going to need displacement as a minimum...the speed I spin it at is another area

Hey Pat... are you referring to Bens' lo boosy turbo "kit"? is it avail yet? any $$? Anyone who can tell us all how it is working for them and the configuration they have? Ban maybe pipe in??
You are correct about the costs you added up there...where can I save...I mean spend else where...ha ha...but really...what do you suggest? If I do the SC cyls bore out & replated to 98mm @ ~$1300, JE's ~$1500, PMO ~$3500, cams ~$700...that is already $6K with extra stuff of ~$3-5K...I see what you mean.
What is the meanest 3.0L I can make with carbs...probably the same cost +/- ~$1-4K and the mean 3.0L will NOT have lo end grunt...
So, I guess it is the $6-10K. Can that get a good solid 3.6 or will it be tired and need $5k of rebuild stuff + PMO's to make power OR will the stk fuel injection work?

I am still spinning... I am going to sleep on this one and check back in the AM guys...maybe ine of you out here will be "Santa" and post a totally perfect solution to my head in a cyclone!
I'll check in in the AM.
Thanks everyone so far!!
Bob

[YTNUKLR]

First tell me how much money , then I can tell you what you can do.

[911 tweaks]

I knew this question was going to come up sooner than later.

Can I answer you by saying what is the least expensive?

How about this idea: an ascending list from least expensive going up incremently of what to do.
1st...Maybe start with cam since this creates the "personality" of the engine.
2nd... piston size and what kind of valve pockets
3rd... cylinder size as dictated from piston
4th... carb size
5th... crank & rod specs
6th... case work?
7th... oil pump, which one?
8th... exhaust i/d size & type
9th... 12 pt dizzy (probably)
10th.. external oil cooling

Now, what are the least expensive option(s) to spec the build as to meet the objective.

Thanks, Bob

[euro911sc]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

I seem to do most of lifes things backwards?... well that is what my wife says!!

Whoa there... lets keep this civil

I've always understood that if you want torque you need displacement... and (please correct me if I am wrong) would you not want to 'long stroke' it instead of short stroke? I thought Short Stroke implies higher revs needed to get the same power with the ability to get even more?

Doing this kinda seems counter to the goals of a lot of the builds we see here so I'll be watching closely

Best regards,

Michael

PS I wont be the one to suggest a chevy ... opps...

[911 tweaks]

Thx Michael for your input. The wife has an opinion on EVERYTHING... whether asked of or not...

Let me through this out... what about finding/doing either of these:
1. ~50k mile 90-95 3.6 w/ brain, exhaust, f/i... complete for ~$9-10k OR
2. buy a tired 3.6 as described in #1 above for ~$4-5k and go through it all.
By the way, what yr did the hydraulic lifters start w/ 3.6 as I would prefer earlier motors so a more aggressive cam & cyl's could be put in the #2 tired engine?

I think I am starting to get a grip on this all. Keep the info coming guys!
Thanks! Bob

[joetiii]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

Joetiii... any ideas on a build? Do I need as I am stating to get the lo end grunt, great throttle response and such with the big engines? I think I am going to need displacement as a minimum...the speed I spin it at is another area


Bob

Bob,

Scott "YTNUKLR" has been quiding me through the slippery slope of my rebuild and I think, has steered me away from some expensive options.

The one thing you have not stated yet is what you plan on using this for. DE?, AutoX?, Daily Driver?, Weekend Warrior?.

Also, what year car are we talking?

The least expensive way to get grunt is to lose weight.

The next biggest gain in push I think is to gear yourself for 0-100 mph with a 7:31 final drive ratio. Do these two things and you can run with the big boys with a carbed 3.0.

Otherwise, a newer low mile 3.6 will probably get you the next biggest bang for the buck.

[911 tweaks]

thx Joe... the tub is a flexi-flyer 82' targa... I know not the best for all out performance, however, this is what the guy likes and I have to work with.
The car will be used as 90% boulivard rocket - 5% with passenger(s) - 5% de/track. The de/track percentage will probably be increasing after he gives it a go since he drives like a maniac on the road and wants to cool that off and save it for the de/track.(thank god for us sane street drivers ;-) )

Can you explain what you are doing with a 3.0 and where it will be when done...performance wise and what you are doing to it.

I will try to get Scott to see what he has to offer for guidance and experience.

Bob

[patkeefe]

So, you are building this for someone else?

[joetiii]

I've got a 82 SC engine with PMO 40s, SSI, M&K muffler.

Without getting crazy, I'm looking at increasing my intake port size, new 9.5:1 JEs, & an S style cam. That should be good for 240HP.

2300 lb car, 7.3:1 ratio in the 901 and 23.1" diamter tires. will do it for me.

911s are meant for twisties so I'd convince your buddy to save some dough chasing horsepower and put it into suspension upgrades/refresh and then some time on a circuit. I've had my car for only a year and a half and I am amazed everytime at how much potential there is for the car based on my feeble driving skills.

[911 tweaks]

pat- yes I am building this for a customer. So, I am learning what I need to learn, filter this info to a greater or lesser extent - depending on the subject, then, informing the customer to get his answer of what he wants to do. (Now I see why this is a great deal for him as I have spent A TON OF TIME researching, calling,... all aspects/subjects for his resto... all he has to do is pick and choose what he wants and or to spend. I am doing my best to minimize/prevent his asking me AFTER the resto is done, "why did you suggest to do this or that, you should of used the turbo part which would work in almost all set ups of the car." That is where all of the time adds up. But, I have learned a lot and now realize how much I don't know!!!. Thank God for Pelican!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe- Are any of your engine specs a result of something that failed, thus, the while you are in there kicks in as I am sure you know about. Do you know anyone with your set up and how will it perform?
Bob

[joetiii]

Originally Posted by 911 tweaks

Joe- Are any of your engine specs a result of something that failed, thus, the while you are in there kicks in as I am sure you know about. Do you know anyone with your set up and how will it perform?
Bob

No engine failure.... in fact, the PO had the engine rebuilt w/ fresh valves and P&Cs just 15000 miles. As Emeril says, I just want to "kick it up" a notch.

If you get Waynes book, or Bruce Anderson's book, the S cam upgrade with properly notched pistons makes a nice wide powerband w/ 3.0 and a much improved high end. The carbs are much more responsive than CIS.

Though I will still suggest getting rid of weight!!!!

[jaybird840]

Hey Tweaks,
I have a great idea... Why don't you sell me whichever long block you don't want to raise $$ for the other...

--Jaybird
(Still hunting for a good conversion motor for my 914!)

[North Coast Cab]

I would start with a regear of the 915. More 0-100 gains there than anywhere.

Thes rest is all economics. P's & C's are expensive, carb's are easy to install and set-up but 46mm's cost $3300, cams are easy too, but require the right pistons....the cycle begins. Rebuild hardware, rod bolts, studs....you're at $10k

[911 tweaks]

joe- thanks for your build info. I will find the info in the books and get the details. Can you pm me your phone # so I could possibly come check out your engine & set up?

North Coast Cab- You are correct in taking the trans into consideration. The engine build is 1 piece of the pie. Trans, suspension, brakes, wheels/tires,,, all the other "systems" of the car need to reviewed to keep the "system" harmonious.
So, regarding the trans, what do you recommend for the gearing and to what hp level will your suggestion survive to? I am trying to add-in a little very probable further engine uprating and not having to re-work the trans again would be a bonus. HOWEVER, I don't want to compromise what is built now for who knows what the future holds for us or for that matter this tubs future. Probably best to spec it to nows' needs. 1 decision made: Deal with the future when and if it happens.
Bob

[911 tweaks]

North Coast Cab- lets spec the trans to todays needs.
Bob

[joetiii]

Here's an Outlaw!

Body,
1971 911 E Coupe

Iris Blue Metalic ( 1995 993), Black chrome,
1973 RS lighweight F/R bumpers, RS duck tail,
RS factory rear flares, H-1 headlights, 935 mirrors, Euro turn lens,
1983 SC fuel tank and space saver spare, white gauge faces, Knoing leather seats, carbon fiber dash trim and front splitter, gray carpet and head linner, RS America door panels, black upholstery with light gray seat panels, Blaupunk Alaska CD,
Denon 5 channel amp, Polk Audio spealers, right hand drive wiper arms, tinted glass, third brake light flush mounted in duck tail.

Suspension:
1983 SC front axel,"A" brake calipers, stainless brake lines,
21/26 torsion bars
19/22 adjustabe sway bars
Sway A Way spring plates with poly bushings
Bilstine front struts and Sport rear shocks, turbo tie rod ends, lowered and corner weight balanced

Engine:
1983 911 SC (bottom end)
Built and dynoed by Richard Elverude
3.2 liter(98x70.4),281 HP and 244 ft/lbs torque @ 6100 RPM's,8000 RPM red line, 10.2:1 J-E pistons, Web Cam grind #120-104, 3.2 Carrera heads with high RPM springs and retainers, dual plug, PMO 46mm carbs on tall manifolds,964 distributor custom rebuilt by Mr. Elverude, ARP rod bolts,Elverude aluminuim flywheel with Sach aluminuim pressure plate, Carrera pressure fed tens, twin MSD 6 AL ignition boxes, 930 lower valve covers, SSI heat exchangers, muffler under development(dyno work done with a AJ-USA sport muffler).

Tranny:
Built by Gordon Ledbetter,
Gear sets from Guard Transmission.
1983 915, ZF LSD(80%),short shift kit,
8:31 R&P (sorry Warren)
1st gear/ 11:35 stock
2nd gear/ 17:34 (down three ratios)
3rd gear/ 21:29 (down two ratios)
4th gear/ 25:26 (down one ratio)
5th gear/ 38:30 stock

Tires and wheels
Fuchs 7" & 8" x 15", clear anodized spokes and lips with black background( early style)
Yoko AVS Intermediates 195-65 and 225-60.