Parts Prices - Mahle piston sets

[eapcpa]

I just received an e-mail ad from a national parts supply catalog. My mouth fell open and I have to wonder why these are so cheap. The prices ranged from $482.98 on sale to just a tick under $700. These are of course for Ford & Chevy and are for a set of EIGHT not six. The following is a cut and paste of the description of these sets:

Mahle PowerPak Piston Kits

The Mahle PowerPak is a complete, race proven piston assembly kit composed of hand deburred, forged, performance coated pistons, high quality steel pins, round wire locks and low drag performance rings.
It may seem crazy, but you really can get 8, 14 or even 22 more hp with Mahle pistons and rings. The secret is in Mahle's ultra flat ring grooves and low drag rings. Improved sealing minimizes parasitic drag to create ''free'' horsepower.

Performance coatings include a phosphate dry lubricant that is used to protect against ring micro-welding and pin galling during initial startup and break-in. For additional performance, Mahle applies its proprietary Grafal anti-friction coating to each piston skirt.

Features:

Forged Aluminum Pistons
CNC machined crown
Hand deburred finishing
Forced pin oiling with machined drain backs
Lightweight slipper skirt forgings
CNC finished pin bores
Forced Pin Oiling
Race Proven, reliable round wire locks, standard with every kit
Pre-fitted German steel pins noted for their high strength, light weight and durability
Phosphate coating - provides the grey appearance to the Mahle piston. This dry lubricant coating (not to be confused with a thermal film coating) provides a lubricant film in the pin bores and ring grooves until the oil system of the engine reached operating pressure; particularly useful during the initial start-up or break-in of engines to protect against galling and micro welding. Piston crown remains machine able.
Mahle's Grafal Skirt Coating - Reduces drag, scuffing, friction and cylinder bore wear; reduces piston noise.



Now forget all the advertising hype. I am a CPA and the only explanation I can come up with is because they can. I may have missed something but this makes my blood boil and I immediately saw red when this popped up. The last I recall, fellow pelicans have paid just shy of $2000 up through $3500 for Porsche pistons. Just SIX. Someone please give me a reasonable explanation beyond the obvious. Not that I am cheap but thats like paying $4000 for an escort serv..... Sorry, got carried away.

[Aurel]

Production volumes dictates cost. The more you make, the less it costs to make. My guess is that the volumes for Porsche aftermarket are very little compared with those for Chevy & Ford. Right now, Mahle is waiting for enough demand for the next run of Porsche cylinders, That was discussed in another thread.

Aurel

[dtw]

Production volume, and the fact that the kits above do not include cylinders.

[eapcpa]

Aurel & Dave;

With all due respect, nice try. Neither explanation holds water and here is why. I am a big Porsche fan but I also am involved in building engines with my brother. We do Ford and Chevy. I do not know of anyone who uses Mahle in a muscle car. Not saying it doesn't happen but it ain't one of the choices I look for. In fact I didn't know they were manufacturing for American iron. So the volume thing ain't workin'. When you subtract cylinder cost such as LN engineering cylinders from a $4000 set you still are paying $200 per piston. The V8 sets range from $54.37 to $87.50 per piston. I am not trying to stir up trouble but the same crap happens with GM for example. If it says Chevy on the box it is one price, and Cadillac is that price times two for the same part. Going back to my cost accounting days, this blows the standard pricing formulas out of the water because you can't calculate the greed factor in the equation. It sucks more than a $4000 Call Gir.... Sorry I went political again.

[dtw]

Maybe they are trying to break into the market then, Ed? Dunno. Maybe it is a much less complex/costly process to make a piston for a watercooled cylinder. No idea. Maybe it is just the Porsche tax. *shrug*

The tax does get really frustrating.

[MatthewBrum]

It seems like Mahle is trying to get in the American Market. I think the cost is low because nobody rebuilding a SBC or Ford is going to pay $200/piston. I don't understand how part volume, quality, or difficulty is much different for a Mahle Porsche piston or a Mahle SBC piston. Mahle already has the tooling and history making Porche pistons I can't see why it would be cheaper for them to build pistons for American engines. Just think how many sizes and combinations of pistons there are for a SBC.

I think it comes down to competition, Mahle has the market for Porsche pistons and not for American muscle.

[eapcpa]

Dave and MatthewBrum;

Agreed, it appears they may be trying to break into new markets. I don't see them being successful at it unless they can get into NASCAR. There are so many suppliers for American iron I just don't see it being a good move. What do I know, I am just a business consultant and tax preparer. Guess thats why they pay for market research; excuse me, why WE pay for market research which has nothing to do with the engineering research we are paying for as well. Dave it just boils down to the Porsche tax. I know lots of V8 guys and they are not going to buy a Mahle piston without a long expensive marketing effort over many years. Guess we will have to wait and see how things develop.

[911pcars]

I suppose the same reason General Mills, DKNY, Levi, Gap, Campbell, Frito-Lay branded products cost more than a generic brand. The product could be the same or equivalent, but consumers, especially those who are not trained to know the difference (if any), are programmed and accustomed to prefer "name brand" products. There are complex psycho-sociological needs, expectations and comfort level elements at work known and fully utilized by advertisers and behaviorists.

The conflict comes into the picture (I understand fully) when the same brand product is introduced to different markets at dramatically different price points. On a smaller scale are the same/equivalent Bosch parts sold at a brand name retailer (MB, Porsche, Volvo, Saab, etc.) and those sold on the aftermarket. Same result. The consumer relies on the dealer to provide a minimum comfort level. There's also the proven law of supply and demand.

You also assume the Chevy/Ford/Chrysler Mahle pistons are made to the same specs as the ones designed and manufactured for our air-cooled engines. Maybe, but maybe not. I do share your pain though.

MHO,
Sherwood

[930gt-40r]

I actually seen a drag car on Speed channel with Mahle sponsorship if that means anything- probley a marketing ploy of sorts.
I hate the prices of our pistons/cylinders but, the only thought that I have that could bring any comfort to the table is research and development. We could build 3 or maybe 4 chevy small blocks for the price of one porsche motor. Well think about how many engines or parts in general get wiped when doing R&D work for designing pistons- They have to run them in a motor to at least test the threshold of what their product can handle. I could be wrong but it seems somewhat reasonable to me.

Other than that, yea- we get the "bend-over deluxe" when buying our pistons.

[fumanchu]

I've been watching a bit of Nascar until F1 starts tomorrow.

Notice how all the teams have the stickers that cover the fenders.... Look at the front most part of the fender and you will see one sticker(sponser) that stands out MAHLE. All the big teams have a Mahle sticker. I cant claim the pistons are Mahle,.... but ...,I would hedge to guess that Mahle has already broken into the mainstream. It is a bit of what eapcpa claims in his earlier post also.... Oh.and fine german craftsmanship!

Shawn

[JP911]

How about Chevy, Ford, Mercury, Pontiac, Honda, Lincoln, Acura, Subaru and Mitsubishi?

See here: http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&Ntt=mahle&x=0&y=0&N=700+115&searchinresults=false

As someone who paid for new Mahle P/Cs not too long ago, I'm a little bitter.

[efhughes3]

I believe Mahle does supply for at least some of the NHRA teams' motors.

[efhughes3]

I also think someone posted on here a while back that they used to work for Ford in purchasing, and bought LOTS of Mahle pistons for Ford manufactured engines.

Ed, I hate to say it, but I think Mahle is much more prevalent in american engines than you think...

[eapcpa]

I just can't bring myself to watch NASCAR. I usually fall asleep 1/3 of the way through the race and wake up to the next program. The bottom line is, we are paying a Porsche tax. I find it hard to believe that Subaru & Mitsu run that much higher volume than Porsche. After all the years of manufacturing, there certainly is not that much difference in tolerances and quality. It is just one of those situations that we have been used to paying over $200 per piston and they know we will do it. I don't fault the suppliers because if they were getting favorable pricing, someone would be selling at deep discounts but they are not. I just glanced at their website and Porsche must now be a sideline, the brand was not mentioned on the surface. They have expanded into many areas and are much larger than my first impression was. I just hope the quality of JE continues to improve and the pricing remains competitive.

[sww914]

Competition. There aren't very many manufacturers of pistons and cylinders for Porsches. They don't lower the prices because they don't need to lower the prices.

[Wayne 962]

Originally Posted by eapcpa

Now forget all the advertising hype. I am a CPA and the only explanation I can come up with is because they can. I may have missed something but this makes my blood boil and I immediately saw red when this popped up. The last I recall, fellow pelicans have paid just shy of $2000 up through $3500 for Porsche pistons. Just SIX. Someone please give me a reasonable explanation beyond the obvious. Not that I am cheap but thats like paying $4000 for an escort serv..... Sorry, got carried away.

It's obvious - Mahle only makes a few hundred of these sets every other year. That is why availability is horrible, and the prices are so expensive. Believe it or not, there is not a huge market for these pistons and cylinders...

-Wayne

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

It's obvious - Mahle only makes a few hundred of these sets every other year. That is why availability is horrible, and the prices are so expensive. Believe it or not, there is not a huge market for these pistons and cylinders...

-Wayne

And there it is...

[Steve@Rennsport]

Wayne is spot-on.

Mahle has aggressively pursued the domestic OEM & racing marketplace and accomplished that VERY successfully.

Porsche air-cooled P/C's are now a very tiny part of their production/revenue stream and given both the modest quantities these are made as well as the difficulties of the USD against the Euro, I wouldn't expect any relief in the near future.

Unfortunately, Mahle P/C's are still the best choice where longevity/durability are the prime concerns.

[BURN-BROS]

Just be happy that they still supply us from time to time.