It's official... She started!!!
 

Yup... fired on the first turn. :D

I was having troubles for about a week with flooding and backfiring, until I realized I had the distributor reversed 180.

When I got it in correctly, I hit the key and Rrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! White cloud of smoke came rolling out. Not too thick, but obviously not something you want to drive around the neighborhood showing off. Hehe.

(This is an MSD-6A/EFI system.)

Anyway... It seems like the motor is revving pretty high right now. I've only had the motor on for a minute or two.

My tac doesn't seem to work at the moment (blue wire in MSD tach output), but I'd say its revving a little faster than normal at idle.

One note... I am using a 15W40 Royal Purple oil. Would this cause the higher RPM?

Perhaps higher revving is normal for rebuild startups and I just have to break the motor in to get it to idle right?

Thanks for your advice in advance.SmileWavy

Eric J.

Read the dedicated section in Waynes book about break in. He recomends runing at 2000rpm for twenty minutes. I do this after every rebuild and whilst it is scary and noisey, it seems to do the trick. Day time hours are reccomended as you will be able to see any (if any) oil or petrol leaks. Set a stop watch cause as wayne say's after 5 minutes you'll swear it has been 20!! Drop the oil and filter and observe the next stage of the break in Procedure. The oil you are using wont cause the higher revs. Is the Timing slightly advanced?
Jim

Sounds good Jim.

I can't say I won't be nervous, but I think you are right. I need to let her run for 20 min.

I'll post a report on my 20 min run. :eek:

Thanks

Eric J.

Congrats on the start of the new engine. Yes, break in the cams as indicated. use that 20 minutes to check the mixture and timing. Make any adjustments necessary to ensure you are running properly. also check for leaks and other issues. You know you will be ready for a drive when its finished breaking in the cams.

Why do cams need breaking in? There hardened steel?

Chris

73 911 E

I think a steady 2000 rpm may be critical, so you might need to fix the tac first.

There are a lot of opinions on how to break in a motor. Best to pick one and use it, and not worry too much if it is the very best. You probably don't want to use mine: put back in race car, load car in trailer, take to track, run the pi**ss out of it right out of the box.

Chris - I have wondered the same thing myself. At one time I thought maybe only one part, either cam lobe or rocker face, was hardened. And the other part was not, but running it in hardened it. But now I wonder if this is so. One often hears of these parts starting to fail because they have worn (or pitted) through the hardening. That could be the worn-in hardening, but as I say, I am quite uncertain about that. Someone here will know. I barely know a Rockwell from a Rockette.

Walt

Ok.... Here's my post break-in report. (3.0L MSD 6A/EFI)

Engine was blowing out lots of blue smoke for most of the 20 minutes and idling at about 3000 rpm (Royal Purple Oil). Sounded like thunder to me, but I now believe this was a normal sound.

Like clockwork, at the 20 minute mark, she settled down and the smoke went away. Almost instantly. Really amazing.:D

She now runs right at 1900 RPM at idle, but it doesn't sound anything like a purr. More like a quite roar.

New issues:

1) The muffler was extremely hot. Heat was transferring to the engine brace above, making it too hot to touch. :( Perhaps this was from the oil burn off???

2) My Oil pressure and oil level are pegged at max, but the dip stick is right at the 50% mark when warm. I have the front end oil cooler (13 quarts).

3) My dashboard tach does not function. I currently have the black and violet wire (#12), at the engine compartment fuse panel, spliced into the negative coil terminal. Is this correct??

4) Timing is slightly advanced at idle. I'd say about 1.5" to the left of TDC. I am checking timing with the advance vacuum and retard vacuum hooked up to the dizzy. Will removing them drop the advance?

Below you will see my MS map for the day. It doesn't show gama enrichment for some reason, but that was somewhere in the 75% area.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1289166409.jpg

Thanks for your advice in advance.SmileWavy

Eric J.

It is for mating the cam lobe surface to the rocker face. That is why even if you use new cams you should use resurfaced or new rockers. Uneven surfaces on the rocker face could create a pattern where there is less surface to surface contact and form grooves and pitting in the cam surface. An even metal to metal surface dissipates heat and prolongs wear.

Shane

I wonder if you are picking up your tach signal where you should. The stock CD box had a terminal for that purpose, as (I suspect) the reluctor system which replaced the points ignition does not produce the needed signal.

How does MSD say you should get your tach signal?

Hi Walt,

I get my tach signal from my MSD output. The trouble is... that's also where my EFI gets a spark signal.

I wonder if there is another location to tap a spark signal for the tach? Someone must be doing something creative to overcome this issue.

Anyway... I believe my hot muffler is a richness issue. I will need to deal with that as well.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Eric J.

Well, my instincts suggest that the coil negative terminal is not the right source of 5V to maybe 12V square waves. Those are what your tach is going to like, I believe. The circuit which makes/breaks the coil current is apt to have severe ringing on it, seems to me. Though I admit that's a guess, and not an overly educated one.

The old points tachs were built to take a higher voltage spiked signal, I think. When Porsche changed to the reluctor instead of the points it also changed the tach. Lower voltage signal, I think. But that's what you have for a tach.

MSD sells a black box which is supposed to clean up the tach signal if needed. I run one in my car (partly because it came with an engine, etc - long story, doesn't weigh much, I have it, etc.)

Their literature, however, ought to indicate a place on their system where you can pull off a tach signal. If their box is needed to clean up that signal, you'd expect they'd say so.

I just switched my track car from Electromotive HPV-1 crankfire and Webers to WinTec3R EFI. I had some tach issues with my LM2, and with my tach. I reinstalled the MSD tach conditioner, and they went away. But the issues may have just been wiring issues - bad connections at some junction boxes and whatnot in a completely non-stock wiring system. Shouldn't have been an issue, but I think they were.

So it pays to check connections/continuity. Simplest fix, too, if it is the issue.

Walt

I think I am going to rip out my current wiring at the rear fuse panel and attach a wiring block and new fuse panel.

I want to eliminate the possibilities of interference. Thanks Walt.

So Walt... I ordered one of these

Tach Signal GMR Pickup - 8918

I think this is what you were talking about? I think you may have hit the nail on the head on this one.

Thank you.

Eric J.

There is no reason why you can't try to run the tach off the 1/4" faston connector on the side of the MSD box, the same place you get the spark signal.

However, I think that SC tachs and Carrera tachs both run off a 5V square wave. See here for more details: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/280714-tachometer-compatibility-chart.html

Of course the MSD is a 12V square wave with a 20 or 25% duty cycle. Now, the Bosch CDI triggers on the falling edge of the magnetic pickup signal (for six-pin boxes) whereas the MSD box triggers on the rising edge (points opening) so the duty cycle can throw the RPM reading off.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm

The easy thing to do is send it to North Hollywood and tell them you want it calibrated for MSD and drive it off the MSD pin. They can recalibrate it and fix the old movement besides, it's not very expensive.

What I have is more like the MSD 8920 Magnetic tach adapter. Basically goes in line with the tach signal from the tach output on the MSD box.

However, if an instrument shop can just rework your tach so it will run off the MSD's tach signal output, that might be a better way to go.

The instructions for the 8920 don't get into the good stuff, like what the output is - a square wave, I bet, but at what voltage, etc.

Unfortunately, the tach adapter interferes with the EFI in my situation.

I'm going to give the coil pickup a try and see if it works. If not, I may send the tach to N. Hollywood.

I will report on what I find and again... thanks for everyone's help.

Eric J.

Today's update
 

Ok... I got the timing right and the oil gauge figured out, but the oil pressure is still pegged at max @2000 rpm and the right half of the muffler gets too hot in a matter of minutes.

Is it possible I have an oil pressure issue??? The left half of the muffler is fine.:confused: If so, what would cause this?

Air adjustment throttle screw is tightened down all the way. I did this because I previously thought I had an air leak. Should I back it out?


This evening's map.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1289442652.jpg


Thanks for your advice... I do appreciate it.

Eric J.

Eric

I don't think there is enough information squirrled away in these posts to help with some of your questions.

What exhaust system do you have. If you have a 2 in muffler, are you suspecting the right bank is running hotter than the left?

If so, use an infra red thermometer "gun" to take exhaust manifold readings. That will isolate a hot cylinder or cylinders pretty effectively. Or, as happened to me, a cold one, as in a plug wire not plugged once.

Then you can get to pondering why.

For instance, do you have six injectors? I don't know much about testing them, but if there is a side to side or cylinder to cylinder difference in exhaust gas temperatures (extrapolated from manifold temperature readings), you could always swap some injectors and see if the problem moved with them or not.

(Muffler is the stock two in one out)

Interesting stuff Walt. I really would have never thought of these ideas. They really do help lead me to solutions... just by elimination.

I have been reading a few other earlier posts on the hot muffler issue and it seems I am not alone. Sounds like some people just drive their cars until the oil is completely gone and the muffler cools.

I haven't had my car out of the garage yet so this might be the right thing to do? I just know the right side of the muffler currently transfers an unusual amount of heat to the engine tin above. It actually melted a wire I had on the tin. But I can tell the rings haven't fully seated either... as there is still plenty of oil collecting in the muffler.

Stock for an '82 is a system where the right bank exhaust crosses over under the bell housing and joins the left bank exhaust before it gets to the muffler. Then goes through a cat, does it not? And then to the muffler. So it is a one in.

Sounds like you have a better exhaust, as the earlier cars had: 3 into one on each side, and then they separately enter the muffler. Not stock, though, is it?

Do you think that raw oil which has gotten by unseated rings is getting into the muffler, and basically burning there, raising the muffler temperatures? Sounds unlikely - the blue smoke sounds like oil that got in the combustion chamber mostly combusting, so it escapes as smoke, not liquid. And you said it cleared up. Some blue smoke, at least occasionally, on start-up is one of the 911's characteristic traits. Only if it doesn't pretty quickly clear up after starting do folks start to worry much about it.

Will the car drive? Why not go drive it some? Some air circulating around the muffler may keep things a little cooler.

What do your spark plugs look like? They should give some indication of oil fouling, or excessive richness, or running super lean. Or being normal. Or, in any case, do they all look about the same.

If I have this right, you both rebuilt the motor (which was a first for you) and installed a different ignition and fuel injection control system. Easy to understand your worries about getting things right.

Hi Walt,

Thanks for the correction. Yes it is a one in and two out. Sorry about that.

Yes... it definitely is raw oil getting into the muffler. After about 30 min of idle and it does go away, but the muffler is very hot at this point.

I can drive the car, I'm just afraid to until I get this figured out.

The spark plugs are getting fouled a bit. A little blackness on gap area, but not too bad.

The car starts everytime on the first key turn. I just wonder if my oil pressure is too high. Perhaps I need to bleed off some oil. Right now the oil is at the 50% mark on the dipstick (13 quarts) with the oil pressure gauge showing 5 bar (max). I have never seen this pressure come down.

I think I will drive it this weekend and see how she does.

Thanks again Walt.

If you got an open between the Oil Pressure Sender and the gauge it will peg at 5.

With the engine running, unplug the wire on top of the sender (gauge should be at 5) and ground it; the guage should be a zero.

If this check ok, it might be the sender.

If it does not go to zero when grounded, there is your problem. It could be as easy as the portion of the wire on top of the engine is "cooked to a crisp".

I ran it again tonight and found the short in the pressure sender wire. Thank you so much for the advice JJ. The pressure dropped to 4bar, which means I'm still running too much oil.

I need to drop a quart and see what that does. I bet it runs a lot better.

Great advice... hope it helps others as well!!!

Eric J.

Hi Eric

Can you tell me what you did to get it to 4 bar. It might be all in the interpretation but a "short" would have take you to 0 and an open would take you to 5. Anything in between would point to a bad gauge. I remember you said that your RPM was not working so... there might be a relation.

So just like in the old Dragnet series, just the facts, including scratching your butt between steps :D:):D

I know it sound funny but we are not there to see what actually happened.

JJ

The short I believe was caused by a dried up section of oil pressure sending wire. I felt around on it while it was running and it dropped to about 4bar for the first time. I really need to change out the wire to make sure it's reading correctly, but I think it will probably read at the 4bar once I get it replaced. We shall see....

The oil gauge also came up to about the 3/4 mark, so I think I need to replace both wires, but believe it's all pointing to having too much oil in the tank. The RPM is definitely not working either. No movement what-so-ever when plugged into the MSD tach output.

Look - unless there is about zero in your oil tank, the amount of oil in the tank has nothing to do with the oil pressure.

Nothing. It is the turning of the gears in the oil pump which creates pressure in the oiling system.

Use your dipstick to figure out how much oil you have in the tank. Don't worry about the oil level gauge. If you have any at all on the bottom end of the stick, that is enough for now. Enough to get the oil and engine warmed up. Then you can check it again. Bottom of the normal range mark is fine. Guys who autocross or track 911s run it there to avoid sloshing oil out of the tank and into the air box. For normal driving you want to be up higher, but that's to cover using a bit of oil while driving many miles between the times you check the dipstick.

Anyway, just don't fill it to the top of the stick when things are cold and have been sitting.

You may, indeed, have overfilled. But since you haven't driven the car, that is unlikely to be related to much of anything you are experiencing.

Oil pressure is set by a pair of pressure relief valves. And by how tight your engine is, up to a point (where the relief valves take over). And how thick your oil is (again, up to the relief valve action). I would not worry about 4 bar on a new engine. Oil pressure has nothing to do with smoking or other things that are worrying you. If you get over 5 bar when you drive the car, then maybe you can start wondering if the PRVs are properly installed.

Low oil pressure would be a cause for a lot of worry. Not your problem.

You can drive without a tach just fine. Of course, for fiddling with your EFI you want a tach to help you know what is going on. I think a lot of guys run the MSD ignition, and use its tach terminal to get their stock SC tachs running just fine. So there is some mystery here. Your MSD does have a tach terminal, doesn't it?

Hi Walt,

Great information again. Perhaps I won't worry about the oil and just drive it a bit. The dipstick shows at 50% when warm.

The MSD 6A I have does have a terminal for the tach output, but I am running my EFI pickup from that location. I have tried hooking up the two in tandem to this output and the dash tach doesn't work.

I would like to run my dash tach from a separate location to see if this works. We shall see.

The more information the better....

Thank you all!


Eric J.

I see you are running a MS EFI system. How is your system wired? Are the injectors wired 123 and 456 for the Inj1 and inj2 pairs respectively? If so, check the software to make sure you are running two separate VE tables where one is rich and the other is lean. This could cause a discrepancy in your EGT.

I prefer to wire 162 and 435 as this will pulse injector relative to each crank rotation. You will see smoother running at low rpm using this method.

The MSD tach-out will not run a standard late tach. (although in some cases it will) You will need the tach adapter. Wire the the MSD tach out in parallel. One lead goes to the MS unit for ignition in signal and the other will go to the tach adapter. The tach adapter output goes to the actual tach. This should work for your application.

Bingo

Finally someone who knows MSD (and MS) chimed in.

Eric, your life just got easier.

Walt (chiming out)

Yes... Bitz Racing EFI
 

Hi Jamie,

Great to hear from you!

I am indeed running the Bitz Racing EFI for 3.0L. I believe Tony sends these pre-programmed for an injector sequence, but I do not know what it is.

My injectors are wired as they came out of the box (Bank 1 and Bank 2). I don't know if there is a way to tell which wires go to which bank.

I love your idea of organizing the injectors to fire with the piston order. If you could explain how to make these changes in MegaSquirt, I know there are many out there who would love to hear it - including myself.:D

I have seen settings relating to this in megasquirt, but I have been afraid to touch them without some direction from someone like you.

Thanks for your advice!

Eric J.

Eric,

The MSI chip in Tony's unit does not have a dual table function. No worries there. I would now suggest to check to things. One is easy. the second, more difficult.

If you are seeing a discrepancy between banks and the fueling (should be) is OK then I suspect timing. Have you switched two ignition leads from the distributor? 5 and 6 are almost the same length. If this is still correct then is it possible that you have a cam timing issue? If one bank is retarded/advanced in comparison to the other this could happen.

If you are having a high idle and the idle adjustment screw is all the way in, you have an air leak in your intake tract. You must find it and seal it. Of course, the great thing about a MAP based EFI is that the car will not run lean with this extra air. It automatically compensates by adding more fuel.

Tony's kit is great. He wires a bank 1 and bank 2 according to the 123 and 456 segments. if you want to wire it differently then you must disconnect the harness and move the injectors such that "bank1" is 162 and "bank2" is connected to 435. You can also change the number of injection squirts and the "alternating" squirts when you have this type of configuration. It helps especially when you have ITBs and the MAP signal is poor at idle running a decent cam.

Jamie,

I believe my timing issue is corrected so that no longer appears to be an issue. During testing, the line flashes at TDC with the vacuum hoses detached and about 1.5 inches to the left of TDC with the hoses attached.

I have tried switching the dizzy wires when I was having higher idle rpms than I have now. The alternative way does not start so I must be ok there.

All my plug wires are double checked and correct.;)

The high idle could still be an issue. I'm not sure what normal idle is. Mine idles at 2000 rpms. I have not seen an air leak at this point and I don't hear any funny air sucking either.

There is one possible issue I am considering as a cause for my high idle. When I installed my fuel regulator I accidentally unscrewed the adjustment to get the hose on. :rolleyes:

I screwed it back on to about where I believe it was originally, but I don't have a fuel gauge in my engine compartment to check it. If I play with this adjustment, could this possibly bring my idle down? I believe I may actually have it screwed down too tightly (decreasing fuel pressure)???

I plan to remove a quart of oil in the morning and see if there is any improvement in muffler overheating.

The alternating squirt methods you are discussing are probably something I will do later unless you feel I should make them now. I want to get these other issues out of the way first.

Thank you.

Eric J.

Latest Report (11/14)
 

Well... this has been a very productive day for me. I have resloved many issues.

High idle issue is now completely resolved. I did not have the AAR properly wired. I do now and... boy what a difference that makes. It would be beneficial for Bitz Racing EFI's instructions to mention how this works. The instructions are very good, but lacking in some areas.

For those who are in the middle of this project. Make sure to remove the 2-pole "injector-type" plug from your wiring harness. Remove the one with the red and white wire and the brown wire (Mine had two sets of each). The brown wire goes to ground and the red and white wire goes to a 12 V key power location. I used the same heater fuse-screw used to attach the EFI as a power source.

I actually took her for a "brief" drive around the block and "WOW!" it was like driving a new car. :p

The one remaining problem I still have not been able to resolve is the hot muffler issue. But I have more information to help folks help me with this ongoing issue

The cat converter is now officially the origination of the heat. Perhaps this is still a symptom of an oily exhaust??? However, my exhaust is not putting out an excessive amount of blue smoke anymore.

I have not played with the intake screw since screwing it all the way in... so I plan to open this back up a bit.

I have also not made any adjustments to my fuel regulator since making unwise adjustments (I have ordered a fuel pressure gauge to help check this).

I wonder if I have a bad cat converter. The converter sat in the shed all winter and was pretty rusty on the outside. Is it possible a bad cat would, on its own, create such heat???

Thank you all for your help. It's been a enormous help.

Tried adjusting the screw at the throttle and at the fuel regulator to see if richness or leanness was causing my hot cat and muffler. No change that I could see.

Still very hot in a matter of 1 to 2 minutes. Could easily start a fire if I let it run too long.

I wonder if I should try taking off the muffler and cat to see what that would do? Any suggestions on this would be much appreciated.


Thank you.

Eric J.

Eric,

You will only see a change in idle speed after the AAR closes. This will be a function of temperature and time. The AAR bypasses the throttle valve to provide high idle speed when the engine is cold. you can drive the AAR with the MS ECU but I do not believe this is part of the stock Bitz Racing configuration.

Yes, the hot cat could be a function of previous oil coking and storage. The CAT runs hot as part of the exothermic reaction from burning off the emissions related chemicals. You may want to try a CAT bypass pipe to see if this changes your exhaust temperature. Were their any signs of intruders in your CAT? Mice, rodents etc may have built a nest that is clogging the CAT.

btw, are you sure you are not running very rich with the EFI? The reason I ask is that the excess fuel will burn on the CAT making it run excessively hot. Where is your AFR at this idle speed.

I might suggest to start driving the car to 1) retune the engine and 2) break in the engine. Once you reduce blow-by and start to get more effective combustion by seating the rings the car will run more efficient. Also, the increased airflow of the moving car will help keep the CAT cool.

Thanks again Jamie... the information you provide is invaluable.

Anyway, I believe my idle issue is over because the aar is now properly hooked up. However, my hot cat and muffler issue continues.

Today I removed the cat to inspect it for blockage, but I cannot tell if it is the culprit of the overheating or not. I'm starting to think it is not, but I need some assistance to find out.

I shined a flood light through both ends and, while looking though opposite ends, I could only just barely make out some light. This is a powerful 250W halogen bulb I was using that should blast light through.... but I'm not sure if it should?

I could just barely make out the outline of the screen material as I moved it around for a different view. A narrow spot of light did make it through. To me, the screen looks very good from what I could see of it, but I don't know if clogging is occurring?

Not sure if I should be doing this, but I did start it up very briefly with the cat off to see if the engine would act differently and from what I could tell it was still cranking out the heat and making a real racket.

I'm getting kind of lost on this one.:(

Eric J.

Are you suffering from Vacuum Leak denial???

I was too.... until I decided to listen to advice provided by Pelicanites. :rolleyes:

I found vacuum leaks all over the place using a shop vac shoved down my pop-off valve and a few rags to fill the gaps around the shop vac hose. It was really whistling Dixie at the base of the intake pipes. Apparently, I did not follow directions and forgot to tighten them down to proper torque.

After finding all the vacuum leaks and properly tightening them, my car settled down to 900 RPM. Wonderful!!! And best of all, my overheating muffler and cat issues are gone.

Here's a nifty trick I came up with, as an alternative to spraying brake cleaner or some other hazardous vacuum leak detection method. Grab about 3 feet of new fuel line and a round piece of new shrink tube (6" x 5/8" OD is perfect). Shove the shrink tube inside one end of the fuel line and the other end into your ear. Turn the shop vac on and point the fuel line at likely vacuum leak locations. Works like a champ. Make sure the shrink tube does not fold and cut off sound. (I recommend only doing this with the shop vac and not with the motor running. Don't want to damage your hearing.)

Thanks for everyone's help!!! It's been a productive day for me. :D


Eric J.

Looking at your map gauge, I'd say you have a massive vacuum leak. Is the throttle really at 11%. The gamma enrichment should be around 100% give or take 5%. Pulse width is too much. Are you using the MS for ignition control? If not I would HIGHLY recomend it and lock down the distributor.

Just some questions not trying to sound like an a-hole, just trying to help. I've been where you are, but with a 3.2 in a 75. I also think you may have some trouble with rings seating or too full of oil, as the oil in the muffler scares me.

EDIT: sorry I just noticed the second page of this thread, DOH.

May I suggest, Update your MS software to tuner studio. Way easier on the eyes and to learn.