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Kartoffelkopf
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seth agnew View Post
While its fully disassembled, you might want to invest in a nice shave and align-bore of the case halves. We do them to every case that comes apart with any time/heat on it. Barrel shims are provided to compensate for the required amount of material removed. Gives you that perfect surface to start with and minimizes the possibility of any oil leakages.

If you plan on big HP, shuffle-pinning the halves would be good too.

As far as the EFI system, we have tuned lots of Noble M12 and M400's that came spec'd from Noble with MBE- its a pretty good system that, if optioned right, works great.
Thanks Seth - to be honest, the case hasn't had significant heat applied to it...I deliberately only used a butane torch rather than Oxy, so by engine standards, not *that* hot...just hotter than I'd like to hold without gloves! Engine also only had 84k miles on it before I pulled it...a mere youngster, barely run in, haha.

The barrels and heads will all be machined flat and set up to ensure the cam carrier sits nice; nothing in the engine looked abnormal, like it had been running tight, but am going to really be thorough on reassembly to ensure everything is measured.

Yup, MBE is great kit, been very happy with it over the last 19years, has some great functions built into the latest kit.

Cheers
Spencer.
Old 01-09-2012, 10:02 AM
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Right, the Pelican parcel landed in the UK the other day, collected it from my regional depot yesterday, handing over a sizeable VAT and import duty cheque in the process!

It certainly felt pretty heavy!

Christmas ptII....all the stock rebuild items. Gasket kits, rings, hardware kits (who can resist new nuts?....erm....), heavy duty chains, new clutch slave cylinder, pressure reg, filters, etc, etc.

I have to confess...it was a tad underwhelming laying it all out..."not a lot" for your $2.5k!! It certainly caused my Brother to raise a disbelieving eyebrow in true Roger Moore fashion!



Isopropyl Alcohol and a new thingy of Loctite 574 turned up this morning (not bad, as I only ordered it at 8pm the evening before), so we're looking good to start dummy building and measuring this weekend.
Old 01-10-2012, 04:28 PM
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This evening was a little light on engine duties...did my second 10km run in a week at the gym, then fell asleep when I got back home!

Got the cooling fan/alternator/housing all separated ready for cleaning. Am sure the neighbours didn't mind the mild and vaguely rhythmic percussion of the copper/hide persuader too much, at gone midnight....all in a good cause.

Does anyone know if the fan blade assy for the 964 Turbo is magnesium or ally? If Mag, then I'm guessing not a good idea to powder coat it?

Does the steel hub that mounts over the alternator shaft come apart from the main unit fairly easily (I can see that the bearing is held in by a rather tight circlip-style retainer)?
Old 01-10-2012, 04:30 PM
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Fan, alternator and fan housing all cleaned up, along with tonnes of other items that I'll be re-using....fan shroud, oil lines plus all the CIS stuff that I'll be selling once I'm a bit further into the project....whoever buys it will be getting some great kit, it looks just like it's come out of factory packaging!

Couldn't resist plonking the fan back on top of the crank case



Am tempted to keep the fan looking as-is, but have heard that if left uncoated, the magnesium will deteriorate, so will get that done in gloss black to match the valve covers/timing chain covers.

Everything seems to be in "go slow" mode at the moment, just a whole lot of cleaning and prep work in readiness for the big build.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 01-15-2012 at 03:00 PM..
Old 01-15-2012, 02:42 PM
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Questions....

Three questions guys:


1) This may be a really dumb-ass question, but does anyone know what the temperature rating of the braided piece of hose in the middle is? Ideally I'd like to get the hard pipes powder-coated to get them the best protection I can; they're a little pitted from rust, not to the point of being thin, just not factory fresh. My Powder coating guy does take a lot of care to mask stuff up, using heat resistant tapes, so I'm not worried about getting "over spray" onto the braiding, just whether it'll stand up to the coating oven, which I think is about 350degC?


2) The nut at the end of this pipe is absolutely locked solid on my pipe...is this how it should be? I'd normally expect this to be loose to allow alignment when tightening it onto the crankcase adapter....or is mine rust-locked? I haven't tried REALLY hard to undo it, for fear of bending the pipe, but did leave some WD40 on it overnight, and made no difference, so assume is brazed in place?

3) Anyone know the length of head stud that protrudes above the top of a cylinder? Any excuse to get on a lathe, I'm going to turn up 6 cylinder holding tools, I just need to know how long to make 'em?

TIA
S

Last edited by Spenny_b; 01-18-2012 at 01:46 PM.. Reason: ...just thought of a 3rd question...
Old 01-15-2012, 02:49 PM
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Evening guys, just a quick "Hi" - I've been updating this thread for some time now, but it occurred to me the other day that since kicking it off, to what I'm now doing, the project has changed in scope considerably. As such, it's probably now better suited to being in this forum rather than the 930 Supercharging/Turbocharging area...so Wayne has kindly relocated me!

The post above ^^^ that I made a few days ago kind of stands on its own - no need to trawl from page 1 (although please do if you feel so inclined!), could somebody offer their thoughts on the 3 questions?

Many thanks guys, looking forward to updating you on another EFI conversion to a 964T!
S
Old 01-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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Kartoffelkopf
 
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Slight change of plan this last few days....decided that I can't "unlearn" the stuff I read about pulling the plugs in the case halves and cam towers...sometimes ignorance is bliss, but I guess tres-expensive! I wasn't planning on pulling the plugs, just flush through with cleaner and air (there's been no catastrophic failure, and the a complete lack of oil sludge inside the crank case, but if I didn't do it, and then got premature wear or a spun bearing, I'd be seriously pi55ed after all this effort.

So, off to Machine Mart...again....at lunchtime to get a slide hammer. Also popped into my local bike shop who apparently had gun cleaning kits (...don't ask...), so bought a nice kit of brushes, wire and felt.

Made up an adapter to be able to use an M8 bolt in the case plugs. Brave pill time again, drilled and tapped, slide hammer mounted but it got too late to start wanging it about this evening; all ready for a flying start after work tomorrow evening.

Also got some fuse wire to be able to poke into the spray bars for the cams/rockers. Coming along!

Come on guys, somebody must be able to offer an opinion on the above questions re oil pipes? Pretty please?

Last edited by Spenny_b; 01-24-2012 at 03:14 PM..
Old 01-24-2012, 02:54 PM
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Productive weekend.

M8 bolt mentioned above was a complete waste of time, threads pulled straight out....in hindsight, very obvious but no harm done.

Bought a set of decent tap wrenches to allow me access to the bung with an M12 tap. Redrilled, tapped, made a new adapter to mount an M12 bolt into my slide hammer.





Plenty of heat with a hot air gun (paint stripping gun), 2 whacks and it's out. Used an nice long rod to punch out the other end (flywheel) from the inside. Easy.

Spent even more time re-cleaning the internals of the case halves. Used a can of this -->



...to clean up the last bit of powdery residue; it wasn't about to come off in a hurry, hence this can of aircraft spec cleaner/protector was needed to get it off, but glad I did, now very clean inside --->





Used the gun cleaning kit to run a set of wire brushes and felt cleaners up the high pressure oil gallery, then cleaned each of the crank journal oil feeds. Did the same to the pressure relief valve gallery, and the #7 & #8 journals (although flushed these out rather than removed the ally bung from the case).

Glad I did it for peace-of-mind. Although I didn't find any gunge up there, there may have been the odd bit of detritus, I'll never know, but if there was, then it's out now. It would have only served to scuff the new bearing shells, so a good investment of time.

For those that are searching for info on removing these bungs, once out, this is what you'll see.





Note the taper 7-8mm in the bore; this mates with the chamfer on the leading edge of the ally bung.

Next the cam towers...
Old 01-29-2012, 03:14 PM
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Cam Housing cleanup

So, today I went about cleaning the cam spray bar in the cam towers. Not wishing to repeat my earlier mistake of tapping/using a bolt with a fine thread to remove the bungs, I used a "self-tapping" hex headed bolt, that sits nicely in the slide hammer adapter.



Drilling a hole slightly less that the OD of the bolt still allowed plenty of purchase, and of course the thread pitch is nice and coarse. Again, plenty of heat from the paint stripping gun to soften the retaining compound, and they came out very easily as well.



Undo the hex blanking plug that is the locating pin for the bar:



...and then a parallel punch to gently tap out the bar from the housing. A little tight in places, but came out pretty easily with some duck oil being squirted down the outside of the bar.

All pretty clean again, but repeated the procedure....gun cleaning wire brush down the bore (exact fit) and fuse wire through each spray hole. Noticed a few high spots on the OD of the bar, that probably didn't help with the removal....gently used a very fine needle file to polish them out, then some fine Scotch Brite to remove some oil glazing. Final spray with brake cleaner, blast through of air, and ready to refit.



Took the opportunity to drill out 3 x sheared off M6 bolt/stud remains from various places on the housings....somebody over the years has obviously had a go at removing them from the outer edge and the "roof" of the cast, sheared them and then just left them in. Now all drilled out and re-tapped. Good job done.

Another cleanup of the oil-facing surfaces inside the castings, and then refitted the bars using new aluminium crush washers on the oil feeds/locating plugs.

For the time being, I've just taped over the holes where the new bungs need to be installed....am contemplating using 1/8th NPT bungs, as described here, but unless things go horribly wrong, I don't plan on needing to remove them again for a long time.....turning-up a few bungs on my mates lathe will be a very simple and quick job (along with new bungs for the crank case halves).

So, I think I'm in good shape to now start trial fitting the crank, unless somebody's got any suggestions of other good practice jobs to do beforehand?
Old 01-29-2012, 03:27 PM
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Made some new oil bungs to replace the seven I removed; 2 for the high pressure oil feed on the RH crank case, a smaller one nearby that is for the #7 and #8 bearing journals, plus the 4 x camshaft oil spray bar plugs on the cam carriers.

All now installed, spray bars installed into the cam carriers (in the correct orientation!), and the oil feed boss & blanking plugs all torqued up - my first dab of paint-pen to mark everything that's tightened!

Whilst waiting for parts and machining work, I made up some of the tools I'll be needing:



Rod & chain holders are all in stainless...nice and clean and no need to paint.

Am using a magnetic stand for the DTI for the cam timing, so made a good thick mounting plate that slips over 3 of the valve cover studs.

Finally, complete indulgence, found some scrap ally stock and turned-up a set of 6 cylinder holders.....guesstimated the dimensions, hopefully they're about right! M10 thread goes halfway down the holder, the first half being 10mm clearance to save endless screwing-on.

...back to twiddling thumbs......current prediction is to collect heads, pistons, cylinders, camshaft (modded for oil pump drive), on Wednesday or Thursday evening.

Mr Carroll, gonna need that initial delivery of hardware very soon!....this coming weekend is my weekend "off" to start the build-up.
Old 02-06-2012, 02:54 PM
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You postman should be delivering a box containing lots of small shiny engine parts by Friday, possibly Thursday. Enjoy your weekend off! :-)
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:22 PM
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Consignment received, courtesy of Mr Carroll! (big thanks Chris, appreciate the expedient couriering)

Love the way ARP box up their head studs....that's one mutha of a mouse mat you get in there

So, lots of new shininess to admire......

And then....In the words of Edmund Blackadder "Percy the devil farts in my face once more"

Got the bad news phone call from Richard Chamberlain yesterday, saying that when they went to lap in the heads to the cylinders, they'd noticed that 2 of my cylinders are knackered. The Nikasil coating has chipped/starting to chip on the top edge. Of course, once it starts going, you're on borrowed time:



Absolutely stunned that I didn't spot this....more than stunned actually, completely f***ed off with myself, and to a certain degree, the situation. More money.

Anyway, it is what it is, gotta get on with it and turn a negative into a positive.

Richard had a dig around his spare parts; he basically has two stashes:

1) the parts he would only feel comfortable giving away to a friend...uncertain life, use them knowing that they come with a health warning.

2) those parts that are absolutely fine, plenty of life left and stuff he feels comfortable selling on.

Thankfully, in stash 2, I may have been handed a lifeline. An almost new set of Capricorn 98mm cylinders, along with A1 condition Omega pistons that have a 22mm wrist pin, not the 23mm of my stock pistons. Both Steve (SBD), Richard and myself are big fans of Omega - I use them in my Westfield Vauxhall (almost touring car spec) engine, they really are a lovely piece of engineering.

Cylinders have had bores measured; yes they have seen wear from Richards 935 race engine, but they're well within the 0.1mm wear (not even halfway there), and being pragmatic, with the use I'm going to give them - road use only - they'll last for ages. Certainly for what Richard is asking for them, it works out about 1/3rd the cost of buying new Mahle 98's or LN/JE combo. At this stage in the project, with the big ticket items budgeted for, it seems like a no-brainer.

So, using these, I get a capacity increase to 3.4 (nominally). Then, depending on the spacers that Richard will make up, I'll get a compression increase up to about 8.0:1, and I'll also get to Niresist the engine, as the cylinders have the flame ring machined into them. Cylinders also have the half-moons machined into them for if I ever boat-tail the crank case halves in future.

The downsides:

1) The heads were all finished, Schrick valve gear was all assembled and shimmed for the 964 cams. They need to be broken down again to machine the flame ring into each head.

2) Literally 1hr before finding this out, I'd just paid the bill for my rods to be re-bushed on the small-ends, and the big ends to be machined to remove ovality and then machined to re-centre end-to-end and ensure the length is correct.....that all now needs to be re-done (well, most of it) for the new 22mm wrist pin. Bugger.

3) A more complicated re-build with more thorough clearance checking, although Richard has kindly offered to help me with this once I have the short block built.

4) I don't get all the parts back this weekend. My weekend off. Again, bugger.

What I can do though, is to check crank bearing clearances, put the new seals on my new #8 bearing and get the head studs cleaned and inserted. Time to also sort out all the stuff that needs re-plating and powder coating - get ahead of the game with this so I don't get held up later on.
Old 02-10-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenny_b View Post
Three questions guys:


1) This may be a really dumb-ass question, but does anyone know what the temperature rating of the braided piece of hose in the middle is? Ideally I'd like to get the hard pipes powder-coated to get them the best protection I can; they're a little pitted from rust, not to the point of being thin, just not factory fresh. My Powder coating guy does take a lot of care to mask stuff up, using heat resistant tapes, so I'm not worried about getting "over spray" onto the braiding, just whether it'll stand up to the coating oven, which I think is about 350degC?


2) The nut at the end of this pipe is absolutely locked solid on my pipe...is this how it should be? I'd normally expect this to be loose to allow alignment when tightening it onto the crankcase adapter....or is mine rust-locked? I haven't tried REALLY hard to undo it, for fear of bending the pipe, but did leave some WD40 on it overnight, and made no difference, so assume is brazed in place?
Ok, little bit of progress this week.

Bought a set of 9 x sprays from a nationwide parts shop here in the UK (UK guys, the CarPlan assorted spray set from Eurocarparts, about 20....very good...used 2 of the sprays so far with 100% success)..included in which is a penetrating spray - of which I'm usually very sceptical, never had much luck with them.

Thanks to a reminder from Chris @ TK the other evening (had completely forgotten this as a "job to do"), I carefully mounted the 90deg oil pipe (above) into a vice, and sprayed penetrating fluid into the top of the nut, left it overnight, came back to it this morning with the trusty 36mm spanner. It didn't take much persuasion at all to free it up - can't believe it was rusted on that hard, I swear it almost appeared as though it was designed to be fixed in that position (again, thanks for the guidance Chris )....so the marketing BS on the spray can, "graphite this" and "graphite that"...seems to live up to the mark!

With regards to the larger oil line in the above pics, I think I'm probably going to replace the whole line with some uber-braided lines, using AN-16 JIC and Metric fittings where needed. Went into Think Automotive (linked in prev post) - really helpful guys, know their stuff. Either going to use the relatively cheap(er) push on hose fittings, well proven, pressure spec'd well in excess of this kind of use...or push the boat out and use some very light and flexible TFE hosing with either swaged on or re-usable olive fittings...same stuff race teams use, has a far tighter bending radius than "standard" TFE hosing. Plenty of options, all of which are far cheaper than buying stock parts from Porsche, but will firm up a plan nearer the time.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-18-2012 at 04:00 PM..
Old 02-18-2012, 03:56 PM
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Some progress of the I.T. kind....decided it's high time to organise the 400-odd pics I've been taking along the way, ready for referencing on the rebuild.

Being a Mac user, I figured that I could either simply use iPhoto for basic indexing/tagging, or if I was going to spend the time to learn something, it may as well be Aperture from the start. Aperture v3 duly purchased from the ever-so-dangerous (for your wallet) App Store.

So, last night and this evening, Libraries have been built, pics have been consolidated and archived onto my NAS drive, then imported into Aperture, many tags ("Keywords") added for searching, and hey-presto, we have some sort of order! Very impressed with it, especially in Lions fullscreen mode.

It's one helluva shock though, of what a dismal state the engine was in when I pulled it....IT WAS FILTHY (and I'm not about to soil my thread with pics of it).

A stark reminder (to me) that even though this is the preparation stage and thus a little slower than the teardown, from here on, it's clean assembly, new fixings, freshly painted/coated "stuff"....and I guess there has been a decent amount of progress considering it's not my day job!
Old 02-18-2012, 03:56 PM
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Ok, completely getting the last few updates out of order!

During the week, I also set about checking the crank journal clearances. Without wishing to open a holy-war debate about bore gauge vs Plastiguage, I've gone with the latter. Mainly due to lack of dexterity to be able to insert gauge down the flywheel end of the crankcase, with stand mount in place, and feed it down the bore towards the #8 bearing, whilst holding it through the cylinder spigots and STILL try and use it in a way that I could get consistent and accurate readings. Wasn't going to happen, frankly.

So, I'd ordered some Plastigauge in the kit of stuff from RS Components a few weeks ago, time to use it.

Interestingly, the guys @ SBD only use Plastigauge for their crank journal clearances - they do a lot of Suzuki Hayabusa tuning, not just tweaking but full on bespoke internals and rebuilds for race spec....the Suzuki rebuild manual states that Plastigauge must be used to check dimensions. SBD also use this method for their Ford Duratec race engines; again, worth noting that Duratecs run far tighter clearances than these aircooled lumps (like "off the scale" on the Plastigauge key).

I guess another benefit to Plastigauge is that on the crank it'll give you information about relative problems between adjacent journals...a bore gauge measurement won't, it'll only give you an absolute dimension, the adjacent journal could be completely out of kilter in terms of alignment, but still clock-up as "ok", and you'd know nothing about it until the crank binds.

Anyway, I digress....not good results on the first check with the new Glyco shells (all "STD", btw), but not helped by me forgetting to fasten the stud in the timing chain housing. All case through bolts apart from this one, were torqued up in the right order, but the clearances I was seeing ranged between 0.050mm and marginally larger than 0.076mm. Straight away, out of Porsches tolerance of 0.072mm.



Hmmm....time to dig out the "old" shells, which not only did I keep but also bagged and labelled each for it's location. Cleaned them up, put them back in and re-did the test....this time remembering the timing chain hsg nut, but also doing the peripheral nuts (not that it *should* make a difference, but just for peace of mind).

Straight away getting far better clearances...on 84,000 mile old shells....go figure. This time seeing fractionally tighter than 0.038mm on some journals, but generally just a bit tighter than 0.050mm.



So, quickly grabbed the micrometer to measure the very edge of the new shells and the old ones, and there's consistently a 0.01mm difference - new Glyco's being thinner. Double that up for the diameter, and that 0.02mm isn't helping matters.

For completeness, re-assembled using the new Glycos, everything re-cleaned and fresh Plastigauge in place. Torqued everything down, again remember to do all through bolts and the perimeter nuts. Marginally better this time, mostly they're around the 0.063mm range, some a little tighter, and one or two are 0.050mm.



Not a great set of results, and not that happy doing a fresh, full rebuild and starting off with clearances that are looser than when I started!

The plan is to go up to Richard Chamberlains, and we'll swap shells with new ones he has, on a per journal basis, to get it closer to the 0.010 clearances....he prefers to run a "looser" crank on his own race engines, as they're always rebuilt after 24hrs (max) use.

Glad I took the time to check this, and not just trust the fact that I'm fitting new Glyco shells as being "OK".

I also found out that if you go to Ford for new shells for the Duratec, you get one choice of size....go "aftermarket" and you get 3 x fractional sizes for each nominal dimension, so straight away you can blueprint the crank build, per journal, as I'm going to be doing...modern engines, eh?!

Last edited by Spenny_b; 02-18-2012 at 05:24 PM..
Old 02-18-2012, 05:08 PM
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Angry Update

Ok, update time but afraid to say, lots of backwards steps this last 2 weeks. Not the appropriate time to go into details, and we'll have to see how things progress in the next week or so.

Have got the heads back, hopefully these should be okay for fitting....when I get to this stage....if ever.

So, where are we "at", as-of 1.30am on a Saturday morning?

Well, Chris Carroll and I have been speaking about suitability of the clutch plate that's been on order. When we first discussed it, this was a very straightforward EFI conversion, but now we're a long way from that, so it made sense to be uber-sure on the rating of the plate.

We've swapped it from a 996 Turbo/X50/S disc to a 997 GT2, with approx 850Nm rating - plenty now in hand. The previous one would *probably* have been okay, but wouldn't have afforded much headroom for future mods. Better to swap it now.

Chris has also been working with Charles @ LN Engineering, to get me a set of 98mm Nikkies and have the fire-rings I now need to use, machined into the tops (my heads were machined a few weeks ago, when the plan was to use the Capricorn cylinders)

Clutch plate has now arrived with TurboKraft - hoping that the second shipment of parts will be leaving Arizona very soon to turn this dismal last few weeks around.

Nice set of new Omega pistons sitting in my office, boxed and ready to install.

Various parts are with powder-coating and plating shops. Other parts have been vapour blasted and look very nice.

But, frankly, I'm completely f*cked off with how this is all going....taking a tedious amount of time to get anywhere and wasted a complete weeks vacation last week, which I'd hoped to have a timed-up long block finished.

Keep telling myself that the good news is that I'll (eventually) have a great spec engine using brand new parts from my "wish-list".

Hopefully all my new parts from TurboKraft will arrive shortly - that'll put a bloody great big smile on my face.

Last edited by Spenny_b; 03-16-2012 at 05:53 PM..
Old 03-16-2012, 05:38 PM
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It sure will! :-)
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:51 PM
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It sure will! :-)
lol

It sure will put a smile on my face, or it sure will arrive soon?....or both?

Good man, I know you've got your hands full at the moment thanks to "Herr Reinz"

I dug out my seals from the VR gasket set earlier....they measure 8.55mm thick for the larger diameter red seal, and 9.45mm for the 3 x green dry sump pump/oil filter housing seals...does that tally with your findings?

I put a call into Euro Car Parts earlier - they're checking their stock to see which vendor supplies them (they generically say it'll be a genuine Porsche item, in a Porsche box, but I did say that that wasn't specific enough, so being the helpful guys they are, they were checking)
Old 03-16-2012, 06:00 PM
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Bosch knock sensor information stipulates that it should be fitted to the block, rather than the top end of the motor, IIRC - presumably to keep it well away from valve noise, which inevitably involves the frequencies made by metal-to-metal contact that it is tuned to detect.

Yes, I know the factory used cylinder bridges for 993 knock sensor placement, I'm just sayin'...

I mounted the knock sensor centrally on my 930/66 using the M8 studs under the fan shroud. Seems to work fine there.

Another factoid; you need the ability to adjust gain/trim the knock sensor. Bosch datasheet stipulates that output will vary (lower) by up to 17% over the lifetime (~10 years) of the sensor. Again, from memory.
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Old 03-17-2012, 09:51 AM
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Er, ok thanks Spuggy? Was your reply (albeit interesting) meant for this thread? Don't remember talking about knock sensors?...or did I?....waaaay back in the beginning? It's all a blur!

Not using knock sensors - for custom projects like this, apparently they're not worth doing at all, as there are too many variables to consider to be able to accurately set them up. The equipment needed to do this is extremely prohibitive ($$), whereby manufacturers quite happily go through multiple systems in order to zero-in on a range of knock, for a very specific build of engine, that will be built in the millions to very tightly controlled tolerances.

So, from what I've been told, unless you have that very specific build configuration, you may have a knock sensor, but whether it's setup correctly for your engine to be able to detect the onset of knock, is very unlikely.
Old 03-17-2012, 01:42 PM
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:42 PM
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