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Oil Line Recommendation - 914-6 Track Car ---Updated - Help with line assembly

We're rebuilding the engine (2.5 SS) in my track car in advance of the quickly approaching racing season and it's been recommended that I consider upgrading my oil lines while I'm at it. What size oil lines are people recommending these days? I want to say the car has -12 lines now.

Last edited by Vintage914Racer; 05-20-2012 at 03:01 PM..
Old 04-16-2012, 06:15 PM
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Vintage,

I will not go on a limb and suggest a size others here with much better experience than I but where the dry sump tank is located will matter, and assuming you have a front oil cooler? This info should get you a better answer.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:58 PM
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Dry sump tank is located in the front trunk along with the oil cooler.
Old 04-16-2012, 07:14 PM
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My early 911 race car (a roller) came to me with -10 up to front coolers and tank, and -12 back to the motor. I changed that to -12 up and -16 back, feeling smug. Next race car build I looked at had -20 for the return line. Someone always has something bigger and better!

I certainly have had no identifiable issues with the -12 (which is very close to stock for 911s which came with front coolers) and -16. But the previous owner, as far as I know, had no issues with the -10 and -12 setup, and I ran that with a 2.5 motor for a while. Oil starvation was not an issue.

-20 is larger than the inlet to the oil pump, I believe.
Old 04-16-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage914Racer View Post
We're rebuilding the engine (2.5 SS) in my track car in advance of the quickly approaching racing season and it's been recommended that I consider upgrading my oil lines while I'm at it. What size oil lines are people recommending these days? I want to say the car has -12 lines now.
Which oil pump does your engine have??
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Old 04-16-2012, 11:37 PM
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Carrera pump
Old 04-17-2012, 04:22 AM
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hose

I have seen -12 function, but - 16 in my opinion is the minimum size for race car plumbing on a 911 engine, on the engine dyno we have seen the scavenge side get "held up" with -12 watching the oil level in the 5 gal tank on the wall and with -16 the level is several inches higher due to much less line restriction, In the big picture with that you have less oil in the tank,less flow through the coolers, more oil in the sump.

Mike Bruns JBRacing.com
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:29 AM
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My oil cooler inlets are -12, how much of a bottleneck will I create if I go from -16 or -20 lines to the smaller inlet?
Old 04-17-2012, 09:46 AM
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-16

The -12 cooler will be a restriction, is it a tank style cooler that you could weld some -16 fittings, -20 lines I have seen on some suction sides other than a little extra capacity it seems a bit much, and have not seen them on the scavenge side
Mike Bruns
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Quote:
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The -12 cooler will be a restriction, is it a tank style cooler that you could weld some -16 fittings, -20 lines I have seen on some suction sides other than a little extra capacity it seems a bit much, and have not seen them on the scavenge side
Mike Bruns
The oil cooler is a Fluidyne unit. I won't have the car in front of me until this weekend to answer any oil cooler specifics.

Generally, it sounds like I should upgrade "while I'm in there" and -16 should suffice.
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I see no mention of the oil line liner for the suction side from the dry sum tank to the pump inlet. Some have said it is mandatory, I know of one very nice 911 engine that failed due to a collapsed oil line on the suction side. Anyone here want to share some experience?

On the outlet side of the pump we have aerated oil, this is not ideal for an oil cooler but not too many options either. On an external dry sump system this outlet is sent to the drysump tank to remove some of the air, then from the drysump tank to a cooler and then the motor. Again not much we can do with an internal pump. Again anyone want to share some experience?
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:22 PM
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oil lines

I have run good quality -16 braided hose from front mounted tanks on 911/914's for close to 30 years and have not had an issue with an internal collapse, I bet if you had a kink or some kind of a restriction it sure could do that or a old/damaged hose, kind of like a vacuum cleaner hose when you block it off, I have seen the internal springs that are designed to prevent it. As far as the scavenge side and aerated oil, not much can be done about that, we run the oil into the coolers on the lower side and that pushes the air out to make cooling more effective. The oil needs to run through a filter then the cooler then the drysump tank.

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Old 04-18-2012, 05:34 AM
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I agree -12 functions but not ideal. I have it on my racecar everywhere- from t-stat to cooler, t-stat return to tank, scavenge to t-stat. I have the materials to replace the return and scavenge with -16 before I put the engine back in.

-12 is smaller than the Porsche original lines. I know hose is expensive, but if someone is willing to pony up the $ for -12, you might as well open the wallet a little wider and go with -16 and exceed what Porsche started with.

Regarding the suction hose, it's important to know what hose was used when it collapsed. For instance the typical AQP -16 stainless braid hose is a darn sturdy piece of hose. Compare that to a length of -16 Startlite kevlar braid lightweight race hose or cheaper cloth braid hose. The Startlite should NOT be used in suction w/out the support coil. Startlite is some flimsy stuff.

Is your Fluidyne a DB-30618 cooler like this?





If so, I think you could easily have the -12 fittings cut off and new -16 bungs installed. There's a lot of room on that end tank to refit a larger fitting.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:20 AM
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Our GT-2 turbo car had -16 everywhere except from the heated Peterson sump tank up front where we used -20 alum hard line to the firewall with a short flex hose of -20 into the motor.

Never any oiling issues.

Len


Last edited by BoxsterGT; 05-20-2012 at 05:17 PM..
Old 04-18-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
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I agree -12 functions but not ideal. I have it on my racecar everywhere- from t-stat to cooler, t-stat return to tank, scavenge to t-stat. I have the materials to replace the return and scavenge with -16 before I put the engine back in.

-12 is smaller than the Porsche original lines. I know hose is expensive, but if someone is willing to pony up the $ for -12, you might as well open the wallet a little wider and go with -16 and exceed what Porsche started with.

Regarding the suction hose, it's important to know what hose was used when it collapsed. For instance the typical AQP -16 stainless braid hose is a darn sturdy piece of hose. Compare that to a length of -16 Startlite kevlar braid lightweight race hose or cheaper cloth braid hose. The Startlite should NOT be used in suction w/out the support coil. Startlite is some flimsy stuff.

Is your Fluidyne a DB-30618 cooler like this?





If so, I think you could easily have the -12 fittings cut off and new -16 bungs installed. There's a lot of room on that end tank to refit a larger fitting.
Yes, my cooler looks like that. Sounds like adding bungs for -16 won't be a problem. I however do not have the welding skills to do so. I will have to find someone who does.
Old 04-19-2012, 05:12 AM
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That's a good cooler. It has a thick core and is really sturdy construction. Mine's taken a few hits throughout it's life and it keeps on truckin'.

For comparison sake, my engine was a 3.2SS 9.8:1 single plug with Webers, S cams, 226mm 78-79 SC fan, std. engine oil cooler and this Fluidyne front cooler plumbed with -12 hose everywhere except the stock oil tank S-hose remains in place. It would run no hotter than 220F on even the hottest, most humid days in our region.

I am switching to a 245mm fan, adding twin plug, 10.5 compression, no more engine cooler (replaced with 993 filter housing). I will continue running this Fluidyne for a while longer. Soon i'm going to replace with -16 hose feeding an Earl's Temp-A-Cure front cooler that is a 60 row 18-1/2" x 4" x 2" thick. At under $300, I think the Earl's cooler is a great alternative to the spendy Setrab 172. Plus you can get a very nice Earl's mounting kit for it for $30. Made in USA baby!
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Old 04-19-2012, 06:25 AM
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:01 PM
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So I went ahead with -16 hose and have been assembling my hose and hose ends. I purchase the KOUL tool which makes it a hell of a lot easier, but I'm having trouble tightening the hose end assembly completely. Despite liberal use of assembly oil on the hose and hose end pieces I reach a point where it will not tighten anymore even though there is a little over 1/8 of an inch of room left to tighten. I've been using a vice coupled with a line wrench. Is this amount of gap acceptable? If not how would you recommend going about tightening further?
Old 05-20-2012, 02:56 PM
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Regardless of hose size, the gap between the nipple (part installed on cut end of hose) and socket (fitting that threads into nipple) should be pretty small

http://208.109.215.220/files/bhose.pdf see page 5

Try taking it apart and redoing it again, making sure you get full engagement of the hose into the nipple (but not too much) and that you have indeed used plenty of lubricant on the nipple & socket and to be sure all the threads have received some lube and you're not fighting so much friction on the threads while tightening.

Here's a few tip videos for cutter style and taper/barb style

http://www.anplumbing.com/page/15 (NICE cutting recommendation with the mason chisel!)

Note how the guy says that as the hose size increases, so does the gap.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:05 AM
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Perhaps one way to check if this gap is going to be a problem is to test with air at 100 or 125 psi or so. Buy aluminum plugs to screw onto both end fittings. Drill and tap one for some kind of fitting. I have a male air hose chuck on mine, but a wheel Schraeder valve might be better.

Add air (I'd take precautions against where things might go if they blow apart) and use soapy water to check for bubbles. If none, ought to be good - you won't get that much pressure in a return line - not even a 1/10th of that. Line to the front probably won't see that much either because it is larger than the fitting from the pump, and unless your coolers are super restrictive, it dumps into a tank at atmospheric pressure anyway.
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