Pelican Parts Forums - Specific Question - ARP Head Studs on 2.7 Magnesium case

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- - Specific Question - ARP Head Studs on 2.7 Magnesium case - Insane? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/738419-specific-question-arp-head-studs-2-7-magnesium-case-insane.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapkritis (Post 7485140)

Thanks for the comment Thomas; the silence in here since making the most recent progress has been deafening.

So I've done my best to go through this train wreck of a thread and I have yet to figure out what you have actually accomplished. I mean certainly just building your own motor and having it work is a hell of an accomplishment but that's not what this thread is supposedly about. As near as I can read you have rather arrogantly stated that you are going to build a motor with insanely low wear and no pulled studs and in the process teach the rest of the establishment a thing or two.

OK. But pulled studs with modern methods are no longer a problem. A long life 2.7 is very achievable and repeatable using the methods the establishment has developed over the years. From what I'm reading you've conceded that after all this you are primarily banking on long cylinder life from using synthetic oil over the plethora of modern cylinder treatments with a proven track record. Really?

The only thing at all that I can see different is that perhaps you've somewhat alleviated the cooling and detonation issue through the use of ceramic coatings, unconventional valve covers and a few other tidbits. Even if the dyno shows you are building respectable power and doing it on 90 degree days without issue that still doesn't change the fact that none of that is a problem if you use standard cylinders to begin with.

So all that at what cost? You are welcome to throw as much money as you want at your own project. But assuming people start to adopt your build approach are they actually saving any money? Gaining any life expectancy to their motor? more HP? What is the advantage that you have given us over the establishment?

You know I've gone my own way in life more than once too and had success. But I was always respectful of those that told me it should not or could not be done. Sometimes I was vindicated, more often I was not. But it would never have been any fun to me to share my success if I had been a complete dick to every one of those mentors along the way.

200 more miles today in the heat and no detonation even when stuck in traffic before crossing the mountain gaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy72911t (Post 7510220)

Welcome to the thread. Let me start by saying you're giving me entirely too much credit here. I'm not here to single-highhandedly change the establishment and 30+ yrs of engine repairs.

What do I want for other readers that visit this thread? I'm glad you ask if there is any impression that this is a self-righteous ego pump. Here's what I would like for people to take away... of course they can take it or leave it and those that leave it are entitled to that freedom. I wish them all the luck with their endeavors even if it's my personal opinion that their heads are squarely up their asses. Free information, honest results and feedback on what I did here. Completely unfiltered.

1) Have confidence in your own abilities and your own data.
2) Just because someone, even a smart someone, tells you something can't be done doesn't make it so.
3) Imagination is sometimes more valuable than experience.
4) Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and your plans; you don't have to take crap from anyone if you know what you're doing.
5) See your plans through while being adaptable.
6) Alternatives exist.

That's it.

Quote:

OK. But pulled studs with modern methods are no longer a problem. A long life 2.7 is very achievable and repeatable using the methods the establishment has developed over the years. From what I'm reading you've conceded that after all this you are primarily banking on long cylinder life from using synthetic oil over the plethora of modern cylinder treatments with a proven track record. Really?

Your assumptions here aren't the same as mine. The material expansion issue of aluminum cylinders still exists even with case savers. You're welcome to believe that it's not a problem and I'm welcome not to believe the same as you based upon science and calculations. That's the problem we set out to solve by ditching the Mahle RS stuff.

Quote:

The only thing at all that I can see different is that perhaps you've somewhat alleviated the cooling and detonation issue through the use of ceramic coatings, unconventional valve covers and a few other tidbits. Even if the dyno shows you are building respectable power and doing it on 90 degree days without issue that still doesn't change the fact that none of that is a problem if you use standard cylinders to begin with.

Thank you for the small concession of progress or innovation. If the sinks work on engines with iron cylinders then you can bet they'll work on aluminum cylinder engines as well and not just 2.7 or magnesium cases. I'm eager to see where people go with these or if they will go anywhere at all beyond my street car. A couple more degrees of ignition advance due to cylinder head temps being cooler might mean quite a bit to some racers here if they need some small advantage.

Quote:

So all that at what cost? You are welcome to throw as much money as you want at your own project. But assuming people start to adopt your build approach are they actually saving any money? Gaining any life expectancy to their motor? more HP? What is the advantage that you have given us over the establishment?

I haven't worked the calculator on what I did here. I can share rough costs off the top of my head but I'm sure I will leave some small items out. Here goes:

JE pistons - $900
Cylinders - $650 including machine work
Install materials including sealants/gaskets - $300
4 x Valve Covers including sinks and mil spec anodize - $850

Money saving... I think so compared to the Mahle RS costs. Definitely saving if you have a case failure with the aluminum stuff swelling with heat.

Performance gain? Unknown at this time. I can only say what my seat of pants says compared to the Mahle RS stuff and it's an increase. Considering I've heard again and again how HP for the magnesium case is limited to ensure life expectancy, I have to wonder how the folks stating this information distinguish between that limitation and what they thought Porsche did as far as limiting power with the iron cylinder. Is it possible you could actually extract more hp reliably from a cast iron cylinder because it is not yanking on the case the same as the aluminum cylinder that is hp limited due to thermal expansion? Maybe so but I certainly don't think it's guaranteed. I don't expect to answer that question with my silly little street car but the question is posed now.

Quote:

You know I've gone my own way in life more than once too and had success. But I was always respectful of those that told me it should not or could not be done. Sometimes I was vindicated, more often I was not. But it would never have been any fun to me to share my success if I had been a complete dick to every one of those mentors along the way.

I hear you on this. I've had plenty of mentors in life and welcome knowledge when it is shared respectfully and hard questions are answered honestly. If the resident guru is rude, disrespectful and name calling (abusive) then they aren't a mentor or teacher... especially if the lesson is theirs to take away for the subject at hand in the end. They're something else.

I do appreciate many folks that offered guidance for dealing with the sticks in the mud and also the helpful tips offered while I shared my assembly steps. Many thanks to those kind souls. There are some great guys in this group and some not-so-great guys. That's life, I'm used to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTL (Post 7509603)

7:31 ring & pinion in the 915 I assume? Goes thru the gears quickly!

Indeed it is. 1st and second go by in a blink; very lively and snappy. :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7440277)

One quick question about the finned valve covers: What happens to the cooling when the car operated at low or no speed (like traffic or stop lights)? With the heater boxes directly under the valve covers, won't the radiant heat from the heater boxes superheat the finned valve covers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapkritis (Post 7440329)

Heater boxes and headers are ceramic coated and the header pipes will also be wrapped with the good stuff over the coat. Should be better than stock under the same conditions as ambient air temp will always be less than the temperature of the sink. The wrap and coats should make for the largest possible delta under those conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapkritis (Post 7465862)

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps1a7363ae.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...psa747f304.jpg

What, no heat wrap?

Wrap isn't on yet. I have the roll and plan to put it on sometime this week as I'm adjusting the valves and have it up in the air. We'll have to see if it helps or traps heat in the pipes that go back into the heads.

Half way through the 5th tank of gas after doing NEK around to Champlain Islands this past weekend. Running water remover in each tank. Removed a diode found in the trigger wire at suggestion of my brother who has many years of MSD experience with race teams and hot/cold starts have improved. Took in the races and local color on Thursday.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps474bae57.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps5ea84761.jpg

As much as I enjoy the engine noises the fiance would prefer I fix the stereo. Tried to take in a drive-in movie in St. Albans on Sunday and was denied...

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps68badce9.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps3e588d0d.jpg

Popped it up last night and drained all oil/removed covers and adjusted 2/12 valves before calling it a night. Checking the remaining as time allows in the evenings. This is the second oil change since the top end rebuild.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps6545c0b3.jpg

I'm glad to see you wrapping the exhaust. I want you to have every chance at success given the limited potential of this build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7525506)

I want you to have every chance at success given the limited potential of this build.

This is the kind of condescending comment that endears you so much to Lapkritis and others.

Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by winders (Post 7525604)

This is the kind of condescending comment that endears you so much to Lapkritis and others.

Scott

Are you kidding me? I asked him how he was dealing with the heat off the heater boxes. He said "I'm going to wrap it". That sounded like a good idea and when he didn't wrap it, I was concerned.
Then I said, I'm glad he wrapped it because I want him to succeed.
Any impartial jurist would concede that cast iron cylinders offer limits to heat dissipation hence the term " limited potential"
I guess I should have said "limited potential for cooling".

Quote:

Originally Posted by winders (Post 7525604)

This is the kind of condescending comment that endears you so much to Lapkritis and others.

Scott

This is possibly the finest example of the "pot and kettle" concept that I have ever read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7525674)

Any impartial jurist would concede that cast iron cylinders offer limits to heat dissipation hence the term " limited potential"
I guess I should have said "limited potential for cooling".

Yes, if you had said "limited potential for cooling", it would have sounded a whole lot better and certainly more sincere.

Scott

Cold run with HD audio/video. Pardon the loose belt. Piston slap? Ummm....

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/14GjQjVVgms" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14GjQjVVgms

Edited to fix video link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7335645)

For those scratching on note pads who wish to spend the next 30 years trying to catch up on your own, good luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7332858)

I always get a kick out of the new guy who thinks he has some insight beyond that of the professionals who have built these engines for decades.

I wish you all the luck in the world on your first build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7337776)

When people with little or no experience at successful Porsche engine rebuilding challenge well established practices with wild ass assumption and theories based in conjecture, the results quite often distribute inaccurate information and perpetuate false urban legend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7337008)

you're no Columbus and the new world you seek has already been discovered. You're beating a dead horse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7336512)

When you're ready to develop your theories to the degree that we are, perhaps you"ll gain some respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7359303)

The answers to the questions you ask are well known to most Porsche engine builders.
I would ask you: how many professional or DIY engine builders are calling and emailing you for advise / brain-stroming on unusual and often obscure technical problems? I receive some 200 a day from people who have confidence in my opinion as well as confidence in the engines I build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7364300)

Every time a gysmo stepped into the world of professionals with the "I know something you never thought of" our business goes through the roof.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7364539)

The forged pistons wanted over .0035" clearance on a new piston or we saw excessive piston scuffing.
Cast pistons generally mean lower quality (unless you can get Kieth Black to cast up some hypereutectic pistons) which is another reason to avoid cast iron cylinders.
In a race engine, tight piston clearance is less important because they generally run for limited amounts of time often hours where the street engine must last years.
Piston slap was one noise we choose to avoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7444100)

Sometimes if you try to make candy out of shyt, you end up with shyt candy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7444187)

Sometimes even a knowledgeable, talented builder (giving you credit here) can't correct an inherently bad design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7466287)

That's all fine but many people read these threads and I need them to have the information you find irrelevant.

Let me share some advice with you Henry. You should start printing and selling T-shirts with your one-liners on them.

Even out of context I'll stand behind every one of those statements.
What else do you have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7526132)

Even out of context I'll stand behind every one of those statements.
What else do you have?

Come on Henry. Look at all the statements of yours quoted in post #314 and compare them to this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt (Post 7466287)

Like I said before, my propose here is to guaranty that the greatest number of people see the best results possible.

Your purpose here seems to be to show people, in an often rude and condescending way, how little they know compared to you.

Scott

This whole thread reminds me of the old time flame wars I used to see between the younger people on the net (this was way back!).
It goes on forever.
Andrew...I can not hear any "slap" you might be concerned about..it sounds like a good running engine.
Any build that gets you back out on the road with one of these fine automobiles is a good build.
I hope the cylinder/piston combo holds up for a long time...I look forward to more info as the miles go by.
Bob

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Engine Rebuilding Forum strives to be like Medical School sometimes: we learn, we post our work for "peer review" and we teach others. Criticism is OK, in fact it's welcomed, so long as it can remain free of personal attacks.

We're not concerned with fixing the blame on a particular user, only with fixing the problem; which at the moment is that users are concerned that the level of personal flaming is interfering with our mission above.

Let's not let that happen, let's keep this forum a good place to learn, show and teach.

Thank you very much for your time.

I haven't had time to read this thread all the way through, but I do not wish to close it. Everyone needs to step off and stop being like they are.

If this silliness continues, I will close the thread.

-Wayne

Sorry for the mess and thank you for the moderation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawgRyder (Post 7527085)

Andrew...I can not hear any "slap" you might be concerned about..it sounds like a good running engine.
Any build that gets you back out on the road with one of these fine automobiles is a good build.
I hope the cylinder/piston combo holds up for a long time...I look forward to more info as the miles go by.
Bob

Hi Bob,

That was my thought as well. There is no slap even cold and I wanted to share the evidence with the readers here. This was called out as a downfall for running forged pistons and it has proven false in the application here. The bore was honed to .004" clearance to the JE piston. If I were to do this again, I would order the JE pistons custom sized (very minor change relative to their off the shelf that I used) to match the bore rather than having the bore honed out. The cost out of pocket and hassle would be far less.

I am following the timeless rule of taking care to warm the engine fully before loading it heavily. I'm expecting a long life from this engine with the synthetic oil once that time comes. Given the amount of oil with a front cooler, I may use my magnetic sump heater once the weather cools to warm the tank before start-up. The less running when cold and loose, the better engines will wear if all else is equal.