I ended up with a motor Grady Clay originally built for a racer. 66mm crank x 88mm jugs. They were an EMPI import from Japan, I believe. Iron cylinders. Short stroke 2.5. S cams. Small twin plug heads (2.0, but not the '69s). Raced it for a year, ran great. Sand cast case became a donor when another motor blew up. If there were head temperature issues (or any temperature issues anywhere), they were not evident in one season of use, and everything looked OK when torn apart. Rods and crank reused in a 2.3 race motor (66x85). Other bits gathering dust.

A 2808ml motor might produce more thermal stress? Maybe not.

Andrew,
Yes the engine is very healthy and was all built in his garage, minus machine work.

If I could make some recommendation, the best possible solution to ensure good fuel is to tear that POS crossbar that link the carbs and either find a source or build your own bell crank style system. Those crossbars are difficult to sync and hard to keep sync'd. My other recommendation is to run EGT sensors(even if they don't stay on all of the time) for carb syncing. many will say that vacuum is the way to go, but exhaust temps will not lie to you. Other than that drive it like you stole it, these cars were made to enjoy!

Thomas

The EMPI 88 were Biral barrels. Cast iron liners with aluminum fins. Aluminum fins being the key word here. Even the low quality aftermarket EMPI cylinder was designed to employ the heat dissipation properties of aluminum in an air cooled engine.
One quick question Walt: what type of fuel did you run in your 2.5?

Henry - not to go backwards on a topic but have you ever run an engine that is out of OE spec for piston clearance on the loose end of bore in cast iron? I have, and currently do (not this engine) with an unnoticeable result. The engine produces serious HP with forced induction and consumes only a half quart more oil than a stock engine between changes. Rev is smooth and fast.

Ring gap (cheap rings, Grant brand) is also loose as the engine is due for an over bore by all measures except performance and reliability... which are the most important measures of all in my humble opinion.

Curious what your experience has been: Worn bore, fresh ball hone, new rings, rigorous break-in procedure, cast iron cylinder, synthetic oil after break-in, turbocharged over 20lbs manifold pressure or not if no turbo charged experience on such a creature.

Baseline street tune, ignition yet un-tuned for MBT:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...s_vr6_run1.jpg

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Bore worn loose post-hone:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...9-21-50_70.jpg

Taking into consideration that the factory ST 2.5 long stroke (70.4 X 87.6) made 270 with racing high butterfly MFI injection @ 8000 your friends engine defies reason. Where was the magic?

Without being too confrontational, I would be willing to bet money that the 265 hp 2.5 does not have cast iron cylinders. Perhaps Birals

BTW: 4 years , 12 club races a year times, 3 hours a weekend is less than 15K miles. 15K on a race engine that spins less than 7K should last a very long time.
Most racing 2.5 are built to turn 8K.

Depends too much on the type of dyno and correction factors to know you're comparing apples to apples.

2.5+6k+nitrous=265?

Andrew,
I am very interested in talking more about where you go with this engine. I will continue to watch your progress! Innovation often has costed many but many have discovered great things while making errors... Plus there are a multitude of folks running iron otherwise they would have stopped producing them years ago.

Thomas

\
Wow Thomas, who peed in your Cheerios?
These were simple questions for which you chose to personally attack the questioner.
First question: considering the output on a factory racing 2.5 engine was 270hp @ 8000, how did your friend get 265 @ under 7000? That's not an attack on you or your information, just a question.
Next question was: were the cylinders cast iron? I predicted Biral but only you can answer that question. Also not an attack.
I do have another question now that you posted bore and stroke: Where did he get a 74mm stroke, 6 bolt crank? That sound cool but how do you make the rods clear the oil pump?

Henry, please accept Thomas' invitation to cross Schwartz in a private message rather than in here.

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...1c38244a/l.jpg

Henry

You are right - I got out a magnet and my 88mm EMPIs are Biral (steel sleeve, aluminum looking cast fins surrounding sleeve). I don't know just why I thought they were all cast iron. Maybe because they are a bit dirty, and I was thinking back 20 some years to when I last looked at them.

But Thomas and others so inclined really should stop personalizing things. We all are, or should be, able to distinguish hype from experience, or at least add our own personal yardsticks and grains of salt to what we read. Politeness encourages thoughtful responses, which are more useful to the rest of us. Very few actually know everything about everything, so there are always things for most to learn. Following discussions often leads to gaining some knowledge (how else would I have realized I was under a misapprehension about my EMPIs?) even if not central to the topic. It really is easy to disagree without being disagreeable. Being known as someone who won't put up with guff, and doesn't suffer fools lightly, is all fine in direct personal contexts. But it really is of no value here. If someone says only X is the way to go, it is easy to say "well, Y worked for me" without rolling around in the mud.

And if someone is discourteous, I don't take it as a sign of weakness or agreement if there is no response, or if the response carefully ignores the impoliteness. I view that as a sign of good character.

Sorry to all, hopefully I've cleared it up. Carry on.

It's all good at this end, Thomas.
Cheers

Just a quick check in. Been putting the miles on. Runs great, very happy to be squishing bugs again and getting reacquainted with the road manners. Carbs are much happier with some miles.

Breather hose needs to be replaced, leaking and noted a split on reassembly.

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I'm not a huge decal fan and try to limit what I do apply to understated and not flashy. Put this one on in honor of the bureaucrats and the related discussion earlier in the thread:

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps8723a14c.jpg

Longest tour so far yesterday. All back roads from Montpelier to Stowe then over Smuggler's Notch and around to Burlington/Lake Champlain for dinner. Lots of hills to allow for variable throttle input to help bed the rings in. Had my fiance along for the drive and car performed without issue. Approximately 250 miles on the job now and ready for first valve adjustment. The car rips, not sure what else to say. HP is not an issue even on mountain climbs. Dyno next? Any other requests for information you guys have on how this performs? Otherwise I may not have anything left to share for a looong time.

It would be nice if you could post the dyno sheet so we can compare torque curves with those we have gathered from our or others' engines.

Called my local and the dyno is two weeks out lead time. I'm going to wait to book until after the valve adjustment is done. If I run into July(which is likely) then it will see dyno in public for the first time at http://WWW.wolfsgart.com 2013 which is the last weekend in July.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/dA1K_Tp8HYk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

74 911 2.8 iron cyl sprint - YouTube

Shot a quickie (not a Magnus Walker production) over lunch. Still yet to tune or work the carbs over but shows it has zip. Learning the cams really like shifts around 7800 to keep things in the happy zone. Pardon the cell phone shakes and early shift in 3rd to 4th.

Edited to fix video link.

Music, lovely music!

7:31 ring & pinion in the 915 I assume? Goes thru the gears quickly!

So I've done my best to go through this train wreck of a thread and I have yet to figure out what you have actually accomplished. I mean certainly just building your own motor and having it work is a hell of an accomplishment but that's not what this thread is supposedly about. As near as I can read you have rather arrogantly stated that you are going to build a motor with insanely low wear and no pulled studs and in the process teach the rest of the establishment a thing or two.

OK. But pulled studs with modern methods are no longer a problem. A long life 2.7 is very achievable and repeatable using the methods the establishment has developed over the years. From what I'm reading you've conceded that after all this you are primarily banking on long cylinder life from using synthetic oil over the plethora of modern cylinder treatments with a proven track record. Really?

The only thing at all that I can see different is that perhaps you've somewhat alleviated the cooling and detonation issue through the use of ceramic coatings, unconventional valve covers and a few other tidbits. Even if the dyno shows you are building respectable power and doing it on 90 degree days without issue that still doesn't change the fact that none of that is a problem if you use standard cylinders to begin with.

So all that at what cost? You are welcome to throw as much money as you want at your own project. But assuming people start to adopt your build approach are they actually saving any money? Gaining any life expectancy to their motor? more HP? What is the advantage that you have given us over the establishment?



You know I've gone my own way in life more than once too and had success. But I was always respectful of those that told me it should not or could not be done. Sometimes I was vindicated, more often I was not. But it would never have been any fun to me to share my success if I had been a complete dick to every one of those mentors along the way.

200 more miles today in the heat and no detonation even when stuck in traffic before crossing the mountain gaps.

Welcome to the thread. Let me start by saying you're giving me entirely too much credit here. I'm not here to single-highhandedly change the establishment and 30+ yrs of engine repairs.

What do I want for other readers that visit this thread? I'm glad you ask if there is any impression that this is a self-righteous ego pump. Here's what I would like for people to take away... of course they can take it or leave it and those that leave it are entitled to that freedom. I wish them all the luck with their endeavors even if it's my personal opinion that their heads are squarely up their asses. Free information, honest results and feedback on what I did here. Completely unfiltered.

1) Have confidence in your own abilities and your own data.
2) Just because someone, even a smart someone, tells you something can't be done doesn't make it so.
3) Imagination is sometimes more valuable than experience.
4) Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself and your plans; you don't have to take crap from anyone if you know what you're doing.
5) See your plans through while being adaptable.
6) Alternatives exist.


That's it.

Your assumptions here aren't the same as mine. The material expansion issue of aluminum cylinders still exists even with case savers. You're welcome to believe that it's not a problem and I'm welcome not to believe the same as you based upon science and calculations. That's the problem we set out to solve by ditching the Mahle RS stuff.

Thank you for the small concession of progress or innovation. If the sinks work on engines with iron cylinders then you can bet they'll work on aluminum cylinder engines as well and not just 2.7 or magnesium cases. I'm eager to see where people go with these or if they will go anywhere at all beyond my street car. A couple more degrees of ignition advance due to cylinder head temps being cooler might mean quite a bit to some racers here if they need some small advantage.

I haven't worked the calculator on what I did here. I can share rough costs off the top of my head but I'm sure I will leave some small items out. Here goes:

JE pistons - $900
Cylinders - $650 including machine work
Install materials including sealants/gaskets - $300
4 x Valve Covers including sinks and mil spec anodize - $850

Money saving... I think so compared to the Mahle RS costs. Definitely saving if you have a case failure with the aluminum stuff swelling with heat.

Performance gain? Unknown at this time. I can only say what my seat of pants says compared to the Mahle RS stuff and it's an increase. Considering I've heard again and again how HP for the magnesium case is limited to ensure life expectancy, I have to wonder how the folks stating this information distinguish between that limitation and what they thought Porsche did as far as limiting power with the iron cylinder. Is it possible you could actually extract more hp reliably from a cast iron cylinder because it is not yanking on the case the same as the aluminum cylinder that is hp limited due to thermal expansion? Maybe so but I certainly don't think it's guaranteed. I don't expect to answer that question with my silly little street car but the question is posed now.

I hear you on this. I've had plenty of mentors in life and welcome knowledge when it is shared respectfully and hard questions are answered honestly. If the resident guru is rude, disrespectful and name calling (abusive) then they aren't a mentor or teacher... especially if the lesson is theirs to take away for the subject at hand in the end. They're something else.

I do appreciate many folks that offered guidance for dealing with the sticks in the mud and also the helpful tips offered while I shared my assembly steps. Many thanks to those kind souls. There are some great guys in this group and some not-so-great guys. That's life, I'm used to it.

Indeed it is. 1st and second go by in a blink; very lively and snappy. :cool:

What, no heat wrap?

Wrap isn't on yet. I have the roll and plan to put it on sometime this week as I'm adjusting the valves and have it up in the air. We'll have to see if it helps or traps heat in the pipes that go back into the heads.

Half way through the 5th tank of gas after doing NEK around to Champlain Islands this past weekend. Running water remover in each tank. Removed a diode found in the trigger wire at suggestion of my brother who has many years of MSD experience with race teams and hot/cold starts have improved. Took in the races and local color on Thursday.

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As much as I enjoy the engine noises the fiance would prefer I fix the stereo. Tried to take in a drive-in movie in St. Albans on Sunday and was denied...

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Popped it up last night and drained all oil/removed covers and adjusted 2/12 valves before calling it a night. Checking the remaining as time allows in the evenings. This is the second oil change since the top end rebuild.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps6545c0b3.jpg

Valves all adjusted. Wrapped.

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps6b94a3f5.jpg

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...psb2b69014.jpg

See you out there...

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I'm glad to see you wrapping the exhaust. I want you to have every chance at success given the limited potential of this build.

This is the kind of condescending comment that endears you so much to Lapkritis and others.

Scott

Are you kidding me? I asked him how he was dealing with the heat off the heater boxes. He said "I'm going to wrap it". That sounded like a good idea and when he didn't wrap it, I was concerned.
Then I said, I'm glad he wrapped it because I want him to succeed.
Any impartial jurist would concede that cast iron cylinders offer limits to heat dissipation hence the term " limited potential"
I guess I should have said "limited potential for cooling".

http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4b9c8595.jpg

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This is possibly the finest example of the "pot and kettle" concept that I have ever read.

Yes, if you had said "limited potential for cooling", it would have sounded a whole lot better and certainly more sincere.

Scott

Cold run with HD audio/video. Pardon the loose belt. Piston slap? Ummm....

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/14GjQjVVgms" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14GjQjVVgms

Edited to fix video link.

Let me share some advice with you Henry. You should start printing and selling T-shirts with your one-liners on them.

Even out of context I'll stand behind every one of those statements.
What else do you have?

Come on Henry. Look at all the statements of yours quoted in post #314 and compare them to this one:

Your purpose here seems to be to show people, in an often rude and condescending way, how little they know compared to you.

Scott

This whole thread reminds me of the old time flame wars I used to see between the younger people on the net (this was way back!).
It goes on forever.
Andrew...I can not hear any "slap" you might be concerned about..it sounds like a good running engine.
Any build that gets you back out on the road with one of these fine automobiles is a good build.
I hope the cylinder/piston combo holds up for a long time...I look forward to more info as the miles go by.
Bob

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Engine Rebuilding Forum strives to be like Medical School sometimes: we learn, we post our work for "peer review" and we teach others. Criticism is OK, in fact it's welcomed, so long as it can remain free of personal attacks.

We're not concerned with fixing the blame on a particular user, only with fixing the problem; which at the moment is that users are concerned that the level of personal flaming is interfering with our mission above.

Let's not let that happen, let's keep this forum a good place to learn, show and teach.

Thank you very much for your time.

I haven't had time to read this thread all the way through, but I do not wish to close it. Everyone needs to step off and stop being like they are.

If this silliness continues, I will close the thread.

-Wayne

Sorry for the mess and thank you for the moderation.

Hi Bob,

That was my thought as well. There is no slap even cold and I wanted to share the evidence with the readers here. This was called out as a downfall for running forged pistons and it has proven false in the application here. The bore was honed to .004" clearance to the JE piston. If I were to do this again, I would order the JE pistons custom sized (very minor change relative to their off the shelf that I used) to match the bore rather than having the bore honed out. The cost out of pocket and hassle would be far less.

I am following the timeless rule of taking care to warm the engine fully before loading it heavily. I'm expecting a long life from this engine with the synthetic oil once that time comes. Given the amount of oil with a front cooler, I may use my magnetic sump heater once the weather cools to warm the tank before start-up. The less running when cold and loose, the better engines will wear if all else is equal.