Ceramic coating

[87 clubsport]

Hi any input about ceramic coating from piston. Valve cover heatexchanger muffler vs powder coat. cause i want to know the difference. thanks

[JohnJL]

You cannot powdercoat mufflers or heat exchanger manifolds, it melts off.

I have ceramic coated pistons but not run them back-to-back with analytic instruments so not much to add there.

Valve covers can be powder coated.

Headers are regularly ceramic coated at the higher levels of motorsport though the benefits for mere mortals like us is possibly only cosmetic. Nothing wrong with that though.

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by 87 clubsport

Hi any input about ceramic coating from piston. Valve cover heatexchanger muffler vs powder coat. cause i want to know the difference. thanks

Here is a fresh batch of Ceramic coated pistons hot out of the oven.
Post cured @ 350 deg/f for 1 hour.
The majority of the work is in the preparation, the surfaces must be clean, free of any oil or grease then lightly abraded, cleaned again then coated with an air brush. (handle with disposable nitrile gloves to prevent contamination from your fingers)
The Ceramic coating I used from Tech Line (CBC2 Powerkote) is water based product. The recommended coating thickness is .001" of an inch. It is flashed off for 10 minutes after spraying then placed in the oven to cure for a min of one hour at a min of 350 deg/f

Please Do Not attempt to do this in your house oven! I picked up a good used oven and hooked it up in my shop so that I could post cure various products.

[87 clubsport]

Interesting, you will do dry film on the side of piston?

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by 87 clubsport

Interesting, you will do dry film on the side of piston?

You got it,

Dry Film using TLMB for base coat ( to build up skirt .001" )

TLMB HIGH LOAD DURABLE LUBRICANT


* Primarily used to build up piston skirts
* Used in very high RPM engines or where very long rods are run
* Top coat with either TLML2,TLML or WSX
* Requires baking. Cures at 300f minimum. Must be oven baked




Then top coated with TLML high pressure film lubricant


TLML DRY FILM LUBRICANT


* Extreme pressure bonded lubricant
* Solvent based, can be sprayed in very thin films
* Reduces friction, galling and scuffing. Increase part life
* Requires no clearance changes to compensate for coating
* Oil retaining
* Aids in cooling parts
* Requires baking. Cures at 300f minimum. Must be oven baked

[jpnovak]

I coated most everything in the engine with either DFL or TBC coatings. Hard to tell how much contribution since I made a lot of other changes while I was in there. Engine runs very well.

My 3.2SS Part II - some parts

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

I coated most everything in the engine with either DFL or TBC coatings. Hard to tell how much contribution since I made a lot of other changes while I was in there. Engine runs very well.

My 3.2SS Part II - some parts

I'm doing the same thing coating pretty well everything while I'm in there.
Its good insurance if nothing else!

Did you ID coat your exhaust with TBC ? I picked up Hot Stop TLHB it is a high heat inside Diameter coating slick/ release coating/ corrosion inhibitor. I'm going to use it on my exhaust ports and inside my ss header

[jpahemi]

Don't these coatings affect the tolerance values when reassembling the engine??

jp

[BoxxerSix]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Don't these coatings affect the tolerance values when reassembling the engine??

jp

For the most part no. Example on the skirt coatings....typically I will spec the motor as if the skirt coating is NOT there. Reason being is if you spec'ed say a cylinder bore and factored in the coating thickness, if for whatever reason the coating wears off you're now left with a + size on the bore of whatever the factored coating was. Most piston manufactures will tell you this.

My gripe with this though comes from pre coated skirt pistons, who's manufacturers fail to list the ACTUAL skirt dimension without the coating. You cannot accurately measure a piston skirt with coating because you simply do not know what the coating thickness is. Could be .0003", could be .001" for all you really know. On some BMW engines I build I'm working with a .0015" piston to wall clearance, so it's imperative to know exactly what the bare machined spec of the piston is as I'm typically setting up the finished hone of each individual cylinder to the specific piston diameter.

We've discuss this here at the machine shop time and time again with piston manufacturers who do this that it would be a smart and wise idea to just leave a small bare spot on either side of the skirt where you can mic the piston w/o any coating on it. Even a 1/4" diameter size dot at the appropriate location would be perfect for just about any standard mic to get a proper reading of the actual piston.

[fras]

Originally Posted by BoxxerSix

For the most part no. Example on the skirt coatings....typically I will spec the motor as if the skirt coating is NOT there. Reason being is if you spec'ed say a cylinder bore and factored in the coating thickness, if for whatever reason the coating wears off you're now left with a + size on the bore of whatever the factored coating was. Most piston manufactures will tell you this.

My gripe with this though comes from pre coated skirt pistons, who's manufacturers fail to list the ACTUAL skirt dimension without the coating. You cannot accurately measure a piston skirt with coating because you simply do not know what the coating thickness is. Could be .0003", could be .001" for all you really know. On some BMW engines I build I'm working with a .0015" piston to wall clearance, so it's imperative to know exactly what the bare machined spec of the piston is as I'm typically setting up the finished hone of each individual cylinder to the specific piston diameter.

We've discuss this here at the machine shop time and time again with piston manufacturers who do this that it would be a smart and wise idea to just leave a small bare spot on either side of the skirt where you can mic the piston w/o any coating on it. Even a 1/4" diameter size dot at the appropriate location would be perfect for just about any standard mic to get a proper reading of the actual piston.

Can you tell me where to buy this coating?

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by fras

Can you tell me where to buy this coating?

This is where I purchased my products from.

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/about.htm

As BoxxerSix pointed out regarding the clearances, you don't always have control over what others have done.

By doing it yourself you Have Control over the application and desired film thickness. Also I personally believe that you have better quality control when DIY

[jpnovak]

Paul,

I did not coat the exhaust. My SSIs were in good shape and the coating was out of my budget. I don't see a way to do a good job coating without full submersion, something I can not do at home. The volume of material required is too much.

I did coat the exhaust ports, backside of valve with TBC while coating my heads. I coated the entire combustion chamber but not the sealing surface. I also coated the valve stems and springs with DFL.

I too spec'd my PC set without coatings and then applied the coatings. I did not measure the film thickness on the piston skirts. My other measurements showed approximately 0.0005" film thickness on the rocker shafts and wrist pins. This correlates to 0.001" total gain in diameter. The DFL coatings easily burnish down to a desired thickness. I let the break-in period do this in my engine.

Some might suggest that the sloughed off coatings would coat the cylinder walls and prevent ring break in. In my direct experience that is false. I seated my rings in approximately 200 miles of spirited driving. Its all in the technique. I have about 6 more hours of break-in time before I do the first valve adjustment and head stud torque. I will do compression and leakdown at that point.

I too bought mine from Techline. HMM they have a fancy new website.

[cgarr]

Techline is a good company and I have also used their products as recommended by Jamie: They even called me back to see if I had any problems with the application, never had that happen with a company before!

[930gt-40r]

Paul- It looks like you are baking cookies in that oven haha
Now would you recommend these coatings (on the tops of the pistons, exhaust ports, combustion chamber etc..) for a turbo car? I have always been interested in doing something similer to what you are doing and just never had the oven (the girl would kill me) or the patients to do so. I also believe anything that could partially isolate the heat to the combustion chamber and ultimately the exhaust on an air-cooled car would be a good thing.

[jpahemi]

Does the DFL coating give any measurable coating?

jp

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by 930gt-40r

Paul- It looks like you are baking cookies in that oven haha
Now would you recommend these coatings (on the tops of the pistons, exhaust ports, combustion chamber etc..) for a turbo car? I have always been interested in doing something similer to what you are doing and just never had the oven (the girl would kill me) or the patients to do so. I also believe anything that could partially isolate the heat to the combustion chamber and ultimately the exhaust on an air-cooled car would be a good thing.

Yah I know eh! looks like a fresh batch of "Cookies" hot and fresh out of the oven..

The build I'm doing is a 3.2 Turbo conversion. I had a chat with one of Tech Lines Technical guys about using the CBC2 over the CBX on my application (because I can polish the CBC2 and want to take advantage of that), and he assured me that the CBC2 can withstand up to 13 to 1 CR @ 1 Bar and 1500 deg/f and that it would work fine in my application.
So far I have coated the piston crowns with CBC2 and tightened up my skirt clearance with TLMB a High Load Durable Lubricant and will top coat that with TLML a Extreme pressure bonded Dry film lubricant. TLML also Aids in Cooling of internal parts and I will take advantage of that where ever practical.

I'm doing the exhaust ports with TLHB and the entire combustion chambers including valves. To help contain the extra load produced by the boost, thereby reducing the thermal load on the engine and hopefully by giving me a margin of safety to keep my otherwise stock Motronic pistons intact.

It can be argued that TBC can marginally increasing the VE and Hp while at the same time allowing you to run at leaner AF.
Fo me it adds a margin of safety.

Its easy to do, all the work is in the preparation and you need plenty of patients for the delicate taping and careful handling until its cured. Once cured this stuff is amazing, it drys flat the recommended surface coating is 0.001" The CBC2 (Ceramic piston coating) can be cleaned up (IF You Want to Polish it) with a red scotch bright pad =0004 steel wool then can be further polished if desired with a a good compound.
I picked up a used oven for this project, and as it turn out my OBX header will also fit inside one section at a time. So this will allow me to coat the inside of the complete header and cure it. I will do some test runs on my old heat exchangers first and if all goes well then I will do the header. Will start by sand blasting all the internal areas that I can reach and then use up a flapper wheel rigged to go around the bends (yes around bends, my own invention lol ) and abrade the rest I can't see. The plan is to capped off the tubes, filled with enought TLHB "Hot Stop" Thermal Barrier coating to ensure 100% coverage of unseen areas, drain then pull a sponge trough to remove any excess and insure a thin even coating. This product is suppose to leave a very slick glossy surface that flow coats well (self filling good flowing) This reduces the heat load on the header and should reduce future cracking and bluing. The exhaust charge will also retain more energy for the Turbo, to me this is a win win! and something that I wanted to try out for myself.

[Dynamohum]

Originally Posted by jpahemi

Does the DFL coating give any measurable coating?

jp

I can't say on the DFL perhaps JPNOVAK can answer that?

I'm using TLML (which is a Shop only product that they will not sell to the general public vs the DFL which they will sell retail)
If you look them up you will see that they are used for the same applications.

I have not used the TLML yet, I will test it out within the next few days. The instructions on the can recommends a film thickness of 0.0003" to 0.0004" and states avoid excessive build up of material.

I would not consider this to be a measurable amount that would need to be adjusted for. Also it says on the can " Reduce buildup of coating material on tight fitting parts before assembly, use " Scotchbright" or similar material "
So if by chance you end up with to tight a fit, simply remove some of the film thickness to suit.

[jpahemi]

Paul:

It seems that these coatings can be "thickness controlled" by hand finishing after application. That being said, how long are the coatings expected to last? Are they used as a break in tool, or friction reducer for the life of the motor?

jp

[TimT]

DFL is applied to "x" mil thickness and can be burnished to less.. DFL will wear or transfer coating from the skirt to the cylinder wall.. I've seen DFL coated piston skirts where the coating appear to be gone.....worn away

The TBC coatings are permanent, unless its applied incorrectly..

I've done a bunch of stuff on my car with REM surface treatment... Isotropic treatment..

In the engine the cams, in the trans the gears, the r&p , the spiders etc..

and of course the headers..( swain tech)

Cant say one with any certainty how much of an improvement any of these made, since I made many changes with each iteration..

[jtkkz]

Originally Posted by JohnJL

You cannot powdercoat mufflers or heat exchanger manifolds, it melts off.

I have ceramic coated pistons but not run them back-to-back with analytic instruments so not much to add there.

Valve covers can be powder coated.

Headers are regularly ceramic coated at the higher levels of motorsport though the benefits for mere mortals like us is possibly only cosmetic. Nothing wrong with that though.

Ceramic coating is best, but you can powder coat mufflers.
We use to own a powder coating company and there is a new high heat 1000 degrees powder use for mufflers.
My porsche muffler has been powder coated for over a year now with no problems at all.