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-   -   3.2l rebuild, the quest for more power (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/819269-3-2l-rebuild-quest-more-power.html)

michael lang 08-13-2014 02:40 AM

911-32, thanks very much for your insight. I am somewhat in agreement with you about your philosophy about bhp gains. I think everything has to be looked at and considered but don't think that everything has to be replaced. Something as simple as a good cleaning can make all the difference in the world and be good again for the next 25 years. I do believe that in order to see increases in output, things have to be done to compliment each other. Otherwise you don't really get the benefit of one item or upgrade. Your example of exhaust is perfect. One would be foolish to think that they can just bolt on a new muffler or headers and think they were going to gets gobs and gobs of horsepower without doing something to increase the amount of air and fuel that is passing through their engine. If I were going after a track motor that lived between 6-7000 rpms than I totally agree, I would be addressing everything. I'm not, this engine will also be used on the street in town and for long distance at highway speeds in 2500-4000rpm range and I need to maintain the reliability and useability of a stock 3.2l . So after many years of thinking about this, I have decided to take advantage of my car's engine being out while the chassis is being repaired and go with the route that I feel is best for my goals with what I have to spend.

911-32 08-13-2014 02:59 AM

Hi Mike - I wasn't suggesting you do anything different, I was just giving you another couple of data points within the world of the possible. I am not aware of anyone else building an engine to my eventual spec, so its very much a path less travelled. In hindsight, anyone looking for an easy 280hp would be better advised going the 3.6 transplant route, but like you, I wanted a rebuilt, "good as new" engine AND more hp.

If you have the budget, I would suggest you think about a spring centred clutch and aluminium pressure plate. Totally changes the character of the engine - no more lazy throttle response - and leaving the flywheel std means you still have a decent idle and don't stall all the time. The 930S clutch is too heavy for most people (though it is bullet proof for the type of tq 3.2s make), but I am sure there are other options to replace the heavy rubber centred std clutch.

HTH, $0.02 etc

michael lang 08-13-2014 03:34 PM

Actually truth be told, already have purchased a spring center clutch and aluminum flywheel. Since the heads are at the machine shop and the engine is still on the stand haven't gotten any reassembly yet. Although it is right around the corner. The interesting part has yet to come...the reassembly and getting it back to the way I found it, only cleaner and stronger!!

michael lang 08-31-2014 02:12 AM

3.2l rebuild, the quest for more power
 
Sorry about the lack of updates. Not much has been done on my engine the two weeks, vacation, getting up to speed at work, a couple of guys deciding to move on which has increased my client load...have all kept me away from my engine.
Not being too happy with the the results I was getting on my hard parts, I decided to try one more step, I found a shop in Walkersville that does ultrasonic cleaning on engine parts so before I went on vacation I dropped them off to be cleaned, I had my brother pick them up for me while I was away. I can't wait to see them, particularly the cam towers. If they come out as clean as I expect them to I'll take them another batch of parts. I will post pics later when I get them back.
I also sent out my fuel injectors to Mr. Injector, Bill Johnson. Pretty straight forward process, fill out the online pdf document, send it in with the injectors. He will then test, clean and replace the seals on the injectors and then retest them. I received an email mid week letting me know how they did and they showed up Friday. Eventhough they were in good shape to begin with, I'm glad I sent them. Here's the report:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/uzumepa5.jpg

Here's the product:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/etysaqyb.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/4amuqega.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/ja4uzemu.jpg

They are like brand new, totally worth the $96 to have them serviced in my opinion.

michael lang 10-19-2014 04:56 PM

Not much has been done since my last update except the acquistion of some parts. The heads have returned from Anchor Atlantic with all new valves and I had EBS send Bob Hirst the valve springs. The freshly done heads are just like new jewelery, immaculate. The cam towers and a bunch of other parts have returned from another performance shop where I had them cleaned. I scrubbed & scrubbed but I just wasn't happy with the results I was getting so I started looking around for another option. Kudos to Gunther's Performance in Walkersville, MD. Now I'm trying to decide if I want to have them painted or just leave in their natural metal color. I also scored on a real nice set of SSI's that I watched and watched for a whole week on ebay. It came down to only a few seconds to go but I ultimately won the auction, real nice set that were built in 2006 and look practically brand new. The 964 cams have been back from Elgin being cleaned up and polished, so now I'm pretty much ready to start going back together. I have to admit, I'm really nervous about going back together. Eventhough I have taken an absolute ton of pics, have labeled everything, followed instructions to a Tee and have multiple manuals, I'm still hesitant to attempt at getting this thing back together for fear of missing a step or not doing it correctly. Any help, any advice or guidance in getting my engine back together will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

DSPTurtle 10-19-2014 08:24 PM

Take your time. It's not rocket science. Don't stress over it. Have a helper when you mate the case halves. Other than that, a good torque wrench and common sense will get you there!

michael lang 12-20-2014 02:02 AM

Heads have come back from Bob at Anchor Atlantic, patience has paid off with nearly new SSIs and an M&K that is in awesome condition. Lots and lots of cleaning and now I'm ready to start putting back together. Pics of progress coming, would appreciate any input in case I missed something before I bolt everything back together. Thanks for everyone's advice up to this point. It has been helpful in the decisions that I've made thus far.

fred cook 12-20-2014 05:30 AM

Engine assembly
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by michael lang (Post 8403729)
Heads have come back from Bob at Anchor Atlantic, patience has paid off with nearly new SSIs and an M&K that is in awesome condition. Lots and lots of cleaning and now I'm ready to start putting back together. Pics of progress coming, would appreciate any input in case I missed something before I bolt everything back together. Thanks for everyone's advice up to this point. It has been helpful in the decisions that I've made thus far.

As mentioned above, either have someone help put the two case halves together or you can do as I did and use an engine hoist to gently lower the one case half onto the other. Just before the case halves come together, check to make certain that the oil pump seals are in place and properly seated. Also, make certain that the Locktite sealer is properly applied to the case edge for proper sealing. Have all of the case bolts, nuts and washers cleaned and laid out in a neat order to help speed up the case assembly. Be certain to get fasteners on all of the studs, even the little short ones that are partially inside the case. Good luck!

michael lang 12-21-2014 02:59 AM

Although I have not split the case halves I'm now wondering if I should. The thing that makes me hesitant to do that is the engine was running so smoothly prior to me having to take it out so the body could be repaired. With it out of the body, it gave me a chance to see what 25 years of grime looked like so I started cleaning, one component led to another which turned into maybe cams & an exhaust would give me some help against the 996 & Boxster guys which led to sending the heads out. Well it's very easy to get carried away. After going through the little bit that I've done thus far, I can see why the labor costs on a rebuild can really get away from you if you're not careful and stay focused on your objective. All the cleaning involved alone can kill someone if they are trying to stay within a certain budget.

michael lang 01-17-2015 02:28 PM

I'm about to start the confusing part to me, putting the cams in and setting the timing. I followed Wayne's book in disassembly especially with making sure I was at TDC. Now that I am going back together I am a little confused about how things go back together in the cam tower and the cams. Do I insert the cam so the lobes are in a certain position into the cam tower or am I over thinking this? The other thing I'm curious about is the heads and the cam towers. I was told not to torque down the heads until after I torqued the cam towers. The idea being that as if I torqued the heads first the cam towers would not seat tightly against the heads as they were being torqued. Does that make sense to anyone?

DSPTurtle 01-17-2015 03:23 PM

Mike,
Put the cams in with the dots facing up towards the sky. It is not a bad idea to assemble the heads to the cam towers on the bench as a sub-assembly and then bolt all of it to the short block at the same time. Much easier in my opinion.
Don't forget to put the cylinder cooling tins on before you put the heads on!!!

michael lang 01-18-2015 12:35 AM

Thank you JB, I thought I might be able to do the same thing but all the rebuilds that I've seen on the forum and in the rebuild manuals show putting the cam tower on and then installing the cams. I guess there really isn't that much of a difference in which way it is done, it just seems that would be easier to slide the cams through the holes with the tower on the bench than if it were bolted to the block.

michael lang 01-18-2015 09:39 AM

In rereading the chapter for reassembly I see that Wayne talks about that very subject of torqueing the cam tower before torqueing down the heads. I'm curious about something else, he talks premeasuring the valve clearance to the pistons during reassembly of a rebuild before applying any sealants. The book indicates this should be done with any radical modification. When I sent the heads to Anchor Atlantic I told Bob Hirst that I was putting in 964 cams but was keeping the pistons and cylinders as stock. I also told Dema Elgin that the cams that I sent him were claimed to be stock 964 cams and that all I was interested in was having him thoroughly inspect them for trueness and measured correctly and do a complete reconditioning on them. I also told that I was not looking for anything extreme in the way of a race engine and that I preferred them to stay as close to stock lift as possible. I got exactly what I asked for, both of those guys were really nice to work with. Having said all that, am I wise to put this engine together for premeasuring of the clearance only to have to take it apart again so I can put it all back together again, or will that be a waste of time because I'm not really doing anything that special?

DSPTurtle 01-18-2015 10:33 AM

Mocking up the long block takes more time certainly, but it is always good practice. You only need to install the rockers for 1 & 4 when you do it so that saves a ton of time. You're just looking to make sure you have sufficient valve to piston clearance. Here's an upside for you, since you don't time cams all the time, this will give you very valuable practice before you put it together for real!

911pcars 01-18-2015 01:32 PM

I've found that the series of videos by Nick Fulljames to be very good and informative. I haven't seen the others, but the more you see, the better informed you'll be. Be that as it may, instead of assembling by the numbers, which will probably get you there, you should get a better overview of the process first before tackling this headfirst.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5tBAhFaitNY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This and many other rebuild videos should be one of many sources including published reference manuals. Forums such as this, while more personal than a printed page, can be valuable. It can also lead to confusion due to the wide variety of well-intentioned owners and others offering their version of facts, some valid, some heresay, some wive's tales. E.g. If someone tells you the oil clearance is 0.XXX mm (in.), I'd double check it before committing $$ and/or man-power in making it happen.

As for installing the cams. It can be done on or off the engine. I'd check and verify lobe wear and overall straightness first.

Sherwood

michael lang 02-09-2015 01:28 PM

3.2l rebuild, the quest for more power
 
Sherwood, thank you for your comments. I have had some guys steer me in the wrong direction, although not on purpose but if I hadn't verified the information I would be taking apart only to have to put it back together again.
I have made some progress and since I'm off this week I plan to make some real headway on getting this motor back together. My friend Chuck at Chuck's Frame Shop in Richmond VA is doing real well with my car's body so I really need to get my ass in gear and be ready for him.
I had my first experience with polishing and here's how it turned out. I was looking at the fuel rails after the were cleaned up and really looked bad so I figured I'd try my hand at polishing.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...1439c33a2c.jpg

As you can see there is just a lot of crud and discoloration on the metal piping so I got out the brass brush and liquid metal polish. From there I found that it started cleaning up but not really giving any shine.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...efb15d1951.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...0cc1b017d5.jpg

At this point I wasn't satisfied so I started really rubbing hard but the effort I was putting forth wasn't giving me any results other than frustration. It was not time to introduce some electricity

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...37dd3fe62b.jpg

Now I was making some progress, with a little patience and some sticktoitness I was able to turn those beat up crusty fuel rails into something presentable in about an hour for each fuel rail.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b6aadfd794.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...a0f48d3b9a.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...4a2248701c.jpg

It really wasn't that bad of a job but it was a tedious exercise. I'm happy that I did it because the way it looks now will totally compliment how they will work once reinstalled now that they have been cleaned out from the inside

safe 02-09-2015 01:58 PM

Now you will have to paint them or they will rust.
Or you can send them away to be recoated.

911pcars 02-09-2015 02:59 PM

This is one of many YouTube videos on removing corrosion using electrolysis. Fully within the reach of a DIYer.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AQNvhUYqCkw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wire brushing is possible, but when you have a threshold number to refurbish, you'll want to explore options.

Yes, replate with zinc or cad after removing surface oxidation/rust.

Sherwood

michael lang 02-11-2015 11:55 AM

Sherwood and Magnus, based on those last comments, does that mean that the fuel rails are going to rust since all I did was clean off the oxidation and put a simple polishing on the fuel rails?

911pcars 02-11-2015 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael lang (Post 8482293)
Sherwood and Magnus, based on those last comments, does that mean that the fuel rails are going to rust since all I did was clean off the oxidation and put a simple polishing on the fuel rails?

If the factory protective coating (zinc or cad plating) was removed when cleaned (wire brush, abrasion, polishing), corrosion will begin on the base metal. Your options to protect include coating with paint, then spray the interior with light oil to preserve prior to installation or replate.

MHO,
Sherwood

safe 02-11-2015 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911pcars (Post 8482352)
if the factory protective coating (zinc or cad plating) was removed when cleaned (wire brush, abrasion, polishing), corrosion will begin on the base metal. Your options to protect include coating with paint, then spray the interior with light oil to preserve prior to installation or replate.

Mho,
sherwood

+1

michael lang 02-12-2015 01:48 AM

Gotcha, I understand. Thank you.

RD911T 02-12-2015 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911pcars (Post 8479133)
This is one of many YouTube videos on removing corrosion using electrolysis. Fully within the reach of a DIYer.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AQNvhUYqCkw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wire brushing is possible, but when you have a threshold number to refurbish, you'll want to explore options.

Yes, replate with zinc or cad after removing surface oxidation/rust.

Sherwood

A couple of great videos posted here, thanks Sherwood!

michael lang 02-22-2015 10:20 AM

After giving it some thought, I decided to replace the chain rails. Originally I wasn't planning on it but decided that it was a good idea and since I was putting together an order it made sense. I'm glad I did to because I found this laying in the bottom of the left side case when I removed the old rail.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...1576feb020.jpg

It turned out to be a broken piece of plastic. No idea where it came from but I'm glad I found it.
In following Wayne's instructions for checking deck height this is the measurement I got

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...4a1c6498a2.jpg

I think I did it correctly by putting two pieces on the top of the piston torqueing down the head and then returning the #1 cyl back to TDC, removing the head and then measuring the thickness of the solder.

michael lang 02-22-2015 10:28 AM

The machine work that was done is absolute piece of art. Anchor Atlantic did a phenomenal job on cleaning them up and reconditioning them. I also splurged and bought the super squirrel racing valve springs, retainers and ARP exhaust manifold studs.
An incredible job of of packing

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...235acd2db8.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...79824df1df.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...5295f3d7b8.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...608257479f.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...8d06370d4d.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...e1c1c94cb4.jpg

I can't tell you how happy I am with how nice these things turned out. I can't wait to get this engine back together and running once my car is finished.

JJ 911SC 02-22-2015 11:05 AM

Look great!!!

michael lang 02-22-2015 04:21 PM

Thanks JJ, i was able to spend some more time on it today. Originally my goal was to get both side heads and cam towers on and torqued down but when i was torching the last barrel nut on the left side bank something didn't feel quite right. Almost like there was resistance and then it felt like the resistance was about to let go as I was bringing the nut to torque. I stopped and checked and the rod did not snap but it sure did feel like something was about to let go. I backed off the barrel nut as to not stress the rod and then brought the torque up to about 25 ft/lbs. but then I stopped because I want to think about this a bit. I feel like now if I try to do too much now without dealing with this potential problem I might end up breaking something because I will still be thinking about that one rod on the #3 cyl.

michael lang 02-22-2015 05:06 PM

I feel good that my engine is starting to look like an engine again.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...f2f8c95233.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...82dc2b143c.jpg

If a rod does snap, do I have to split that cases or is it it possible to replace them with the cases still sealed together?

911pcars 02-22-2015 05:12 PM

Factory rod bolts are "torque to yield" type fasteners, aka one-time bolts. Replace all if attempting to reuse them. Some recommend stronger ARP versions. In addition, Carrera rod bolts are smaller OD than SC bolts).

Sherwood

michael lang 02-23-2015 05:59 AM

Okay Sherwood, I do understand that. Does that mean I would have to split the cases in order to remove the old rods to install the new ones, or is it possible to get the old ones out with the case halves still intact?

Jcslocum 02-23-2015 06:40 AM

You can do it without splitting the case. I will be doing it this week myself. I have new rod bearings coming for my build after finding a kind of wear burnish mark on 1 bearing. All other looked very good. It's a trick to get them back in with the assembly lube on because they want to slide and fall, not stay stuck in place as you put the rod to the cap. Not all that hard to do.

911pcars 02-23-2015 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcslocum (Post 8500438)
You can do it without splitting the case. I will be doing it this week myself. I have new rod bearings coming for my build after finding a kind of wear burnish mark on 1 bearing. All other looked very good. It's a trick to get them back in with the assembly lube on because they want to slide and fall, not stay stuck in place as you put the rod to the cap. Not all that hard to do.

+1. Very doable with the case together. Position each crank pin at TDC to install and assemble the con rod and cap with lube (install piston and cylinders later). Prep the area to avoid dropping rod nuts inside the engine. Support the rod cap from the opposite spigot and/or tilt the engine if needed to keep the cap in place when assembling the rod to it. A magnetic P/U tool can help start the nut onto the threads. See below for evidence of what can happen to ruin your day.

This is a cam housing nut, but you get the idea about fumbling fingers and gravity. I fashioned the slender p/u tool from parts of an inspection mirror, button magnet and shrink wrap:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1424714279.jpg

Sherwood

michael lang 02-23-2015 05:36 PM

When I take the heads back off to do remove the headbolt studs, should I take them off as a whole unit like I did originally or is it better to seperate the heads from the cam tower and reseal it later? Sorry for all the newbie questions, I can't thank everyone enough for their input, I would not have gotten this far without it.

michael lang 02-25-2015 12:41 AM

In searching the internet for information it appears as though the ARP and the Raceware head studs are pretty equal and the prices for both are almost the same. I'm about to make a decision to purchase a set, but before I do, is there any one reason why I may want to go with one set versus the other?

safe 02-25-2015 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael lang (Post 8503751)
In searching the internet for information it appears as though the ARP and the Raceware head studs are pretty equal and the prices for both are almost the same. I'm about to make a decision to purchase a set, but before I do, is there any one reason why I may want to go with one set versus the other?

Yes, you could go with Supertec.

Jcslocum 02-25-2015 04:42 AM

+1 on what Safe says. Henry from Supertec supports this forum and others with his knowledge. If you can swing it, go with his.

Take it all apart and reseal it.

safe 02-25-2015 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jcslocum (Post 8503827)
If you can swing it, go with his.

Well, they are cheaper than Raceware , at least one Pelican...

gtc 02-25-2015 08:53 AM

Raceware is crazy expensive, if you buy the studs, nuts, and washers. ($675 is just for the studs)
If you shop around, ARPs are cheaper than Supertec by about $100.

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael lang (Post 8503751)
In searching the internet for information it appears as though the ARP and the Raceware head studs are pretty equal and the prices for both are almost the same. I'm about to make a decision to purchase a set, but before I do, is there any one reason why I may want to go with one set versus the other?


safe 02-25-2015 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael lang (Post 8501526)
should I take them off as a whole unit like I did originally or is it better to seperate the heads from the cam tower and reseal it later?

I would remove them as a unit, no use redoing more work than necessary.

crashmy911 02-26-2015 10:58 AM

I would do rod bolts anyway. With 964 cams you will make power past 6800 rpms. 3.2 rod bolts are known to let go.


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