ZDDP, Break in Oil, Bearings, Rod Bolts, and more

[E Sully]

Have free time to read an interesting Blog? I came across this in another car forum. Very interesting. Heavy analysis of modern oils and additive use.
Mainly oil related, but also hits on H or I beam rods, camshafts, and much more.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

[cgarr]

Damn, still reading: fascinating

[Ronnie's.930]

Yep, very interesting.

A guy posted that in the 930 forum a while back, when oil types were being discussed for the zillonth time , and I got to see that my oil of choice for my 930 (based on use in a Ducati 748R endurance race bike that showed dramatic improvement in rocker arm life with its use, and the oil's claimed, remarkably high flash point and safe operating temp), Motul 300V4t 15w50, tested the best of all the dozens of oils the guy has sampled, with no additives added to it (he actually says that it is so good that he thinks adding additional additives would diminish its performance). He also noted that even though it is marketed as a racing oil, it has a sufficient detergent package for changing at normal, street operated intervals.

He also points out that it is the most expensive oil he's ever tested (though the prices he lists are far higher than it can be bought though Amazon, etc), but I suppose that is a case of getting what you pay for.

[afterburn 549]

Me too...
Is it all hype to sell the "oil Extream" ?
I am reading trying to separate sales talk from fact talk .
Fascinating .

[chris_seven]

To absorb that much data presented in a descriptive style is quite difficult but I am sure that some conclusions can be drawn.

It is fair to say that the debate concerning ZDDP and flat tappet engines began when the levels of this additive were reduced due the legislation.

I believe that this meant that for many of us 20+ years of experience with a specific oil vanished straight down the tube and we all became nervous.

I have used Valvoline 20/50 Racing in a significant number of flat tappet engines some of which revved to 10K for many years and I became quite nervous.

My first response was to ask Valvoline Tech department what had happened and they confirmed that a ZDDP reduction had happened and simply said all would be OK, which is what you would expect them to say.

Trying to find out what was the real impact would be was at that time difficult, so we switched to a Joe Gibbs Driven Oil as an alternative while we tried to understand.

Much of the published work on ZDDP was from early Aero engine data which seemed to indicate positive benefits of moderate levels of ZDDP - say 1200ppm.

It also became clear that higher levels 2000+ppm could cause surface pitting to occur which would result in medium term damage and potential fatigue failure.

They idea on buying an API recommended oil and dosing it up with ZDDP does become problematic particularly as at that time there was little or no published data on the amount of ZDDP in a particular oil.

This is when good old 'Snake Oil' selling started up with huge number of miracle additives appearing on the market and huge quantities of hype started to be published.

At the same time the synthetic vs petroleum and the 'thick' vs thin debate started.

It all became a serious muddle and IMHO we tended to lose a certain degree of objectivity.

When I first started driving in competition the 'oil of choice' tended to be Castrol R which was a vegetable oil.

R40 was commonly used in Rally cars and although its levels of lubricity were phenomenal (we believed) it was a PITA due to its tendency for form shellac in the engine and its hygrosopic nature.

In the late Sixties Castrol produced a 'new' oil sold as Castrol Competition Oil and this was based on an Agricultural Diesel Engine Oil CRI40.

This oil was used by Ford for their Twin Cam and BDA engines and we used it in all of our Rally Engines for about 15 years.

It was a straight 40 grade and quite detergent. We had no idea about the existence of ZDDP or the levels in the oil, we just poured into the engines which ran well, were reliable and gave no issues. If it was still available now I would probably still use it in our Rally Engines.

From time to time we were persuade to try alternatives such as Castrol GTX which after 100 miles of a Rally resulted in an oil light flickering at idle so we went back to CRI40.

When CRI40 was dropped we started to use Valvoline Racing 20/50 until VR1 cam along and then it just became messy.

So where does this leave us?

W seem to not recognise that a modern oil recommended by a manufacturer needs to be a broad spectrum product that works in Alaska and Dubai. It needs to allow the car to be used by a 'District Nurse' and a rep driving flat out on the Autobahn with long intervals between oil changes.

Most of our 911s have a 'narrow' spectrum duty and are used as race cars of or 'cosseted', warmed up nicely, driven hard but sensibly and have regular oil changes so it is likely that in terms of oil 'one size will not fit all'.

I think it is clear from the results that oil must be considered as a 'total' package the sum of the parts probably being more important that individual components.

The data presented is, from a scientific point of view, a little messy.

The ranking is interesting but for many of the oils as the Zinc and Phosphorous Levels are not published it is hard to draw real conclusions.

I would think that the mechanism involved in providing protection could well have minimum and maximum levels where there is little difference in performance but without considering the influence of other components of the oil and their interactions it is really difficult to reach a hard conclusion.

For example Calcium Sulphonate which this data suggests is a more modern additive has been used as a thickener in greases for about 50 years but could be beneficial.

The same can be said of Molybdenum which will always tend to reduce adhesive wear up to very high temperatures.

I think that to try to establish the individual impact of specific additives is far to complex and the approach adopted of 'whole product' testing is the best way forward but without some international standard will be very tricky to establish.

Until then I guess it is a case of suck it and see.

The argument about viscosity and bearing clearance is another can of worms and we tend to stick to standard clearances and run 'old fashioned' viscosities.

We have neither the time or money to risk reduced clearances on 0W/30 oils although I find the idea fascinating.

[Cairo94507]

Seriously.....I have read oil threads until I felt like I was oozing oil from my eyeballs. What oil should I run in my '87 3.2, essentially stock motor, just rebuilt, going in my '71 Six which will live and drive in the SF Bay Area of CA? It will be street driven and not raced or auto crossed.

[porterdog]

Still loving Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic at 10-15K intervals. Diesel oil, not expensive, readily available. Search my threads and you can find a couple oil analyses I had done.

[dhanl82]

Just wonderful, according to this, the oil I am running in my lawnmower (Castrol GTX) is better than the Brad Penn that I am running in my 911sc! I recently switched the Porsche from Castrol GTX 20 - 50 to Brad Penn. I guess I will perhaps have to consider a change in brands.

[afterburn 549]

Originally Posted by porterdog

Still loving Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic at 10-15K intervals. Diesel oil, not expensive, readily available. Search my threads and you can find a couple oil analyses I had done.

123. 15W40 “NEW” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM = 72,022 psi
zinc = 1454 ppm
phos = 1062 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

Not as good as I had hoped for , with only 72,000 PSI .
I am switching to Amsoil.
I have for most other stuff already.

[porterdog]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

Not as good as I had hoped for...

Agree, but.... I have lab test data that show it's working (in my engine). The article posted was one single source, and while it *sounds* credible...

[afterburn 549]

It might be a snake oil pitch...

[David Borden]

Thanks for posting, appears to be some great data. Blows many of my assumptions out of the water.

David

[afterburn 549]

The Psi report I would guess is accurate and something to consider !
I always have to wonder what is the difference in oil for a big diesel compared to a gas engine , as the Amsoil looks pretty good !

[VFR750]

It would be interesting to see how 30-40 year old oil would stack up in these tests. Most of our engines were first broken in long before the EPA rules change. Like my 1982 SC. Went 32 years and 135k based on that fateful day in early 1982 when the first critical start happened.

What psi and ZDDP did that oil have?

That oil, by demonstration, was pretty darn good!

I know they serviced the car with castrol 20w-50 gtx in the early years.