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From 91429962993bk2914
 
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Cam Nuts / removal

In Wayne's book, I seem to recall from the 4th or 5th read, that he refers to "zipping" off the cam bolts on a 81+ 3.0 SC motor by using an impact gun set for counter clockwise rotation / (not from Section 2, Camshafts - but somewhere else in the book.. i think...)

Although in Section 2, great emphasis is placed on using P9191 tool to hold the cam sprocket while removing the cam bolt. And i would assume that, although not clearly specified in Wayne's book, the flywheel lock should be firmly secured in place if this air wrench method is used....

Has anyone out there done this without issue / even with the chain rails removed and the chains somewhat loose? This seem a brutal and scary way to remove these two 19mm nuts. At 75 bucks, the 9191 tool may be the way to go / thoughts and experience please.

cheers
Old 07-07-2016, 06:10 PM
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This is all about the benefit of using an impact gun as opposed to a big breaker bar to loosen the cam nuts or bolts. You can easily loosen lug nuts on a wheel with the wheel off the ground and holding it by hand. In the same imanner, when I took the cam bolts off of my 964 cams with my pneumatic impact gun, there was very little stress on the chains or anything. They just came right off. The special tool is needed to hold the cam sprocket while tightening it.
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:46 PM
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^^^

Exactly - and one of the things that an air-impact is so useful for; easily removes fasteners while exerting very little force on the components the fasteners are screwed in to. With sufficient air pressure, the cam does not even move during the process (no need to hold the gear with anything - not even your hand).
Old 07-08-2016, 12:07 AM
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Old 07-09-2016, 12:29 PM
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With new style-I.E. it's not a big deal but with the older nut setup I would NEVER use an impact
gun since there is a ton of drag/friction between the face of the nut and washer.
You're going to need the tool to hold them when tightening so why not use it for removal too?
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrestkhaag View Post
In Wayne's book, I seem to recall from the 4th or 5th read, that he refers to "zipping" off the cam bolts on a 81+ 3.0 SC motor by using an impact gun set for counter clockwise rotation / (not from Section 2, Camshafts - but somewhere else in the book.. i think...)

Although in Section 2, great emphasis is placed on using P9191 tool to hold the cam sprocket while removing the cam bolt. And i would assume that, although not clearly specified in Wayne's book, the flywheel lock should be firmly secured in place if this air wrench method is used....

Has anyone out there done this without issue / even with the chain rails removed and the chains somewhat loose? This seem a brutal and scary way to remove these two 19mm nuts. At 75 bucks, the 9191 tool may be the way to go / thoughts and experience please.

cheers
Forrest, I have that tool, you live close to me, you're welcome to borrow...
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:45 AM
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^^^ Outstanding Pat!

Maybe you can show him how to use it as it is much more difficult one man process if one has not done it before vs the 3.2 tool.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:56 AM
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With the early-style large nut (46mm?) it's very awkward to use the cam holder in one hand, and keep the crow's foot on the nut while applying enough force to turn it with the other. A helper makes all the difference!
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbunda View Post
With the early-style large nut (46mm?) it's very awkward to use the cam holder in one hand, and keep the crow's foot on the nut while applying enough force to turn it with the other. A helper makes all the difference!
Heh, BTDT alone, you're certainly right, two people (in sync - so don't ask the wifey) would've made much easier.
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infraredcalvin View Post
Heh, BTDT alone, you're certainly right, two people (in sync - so don't ask the wifey) would've made much easier.
Pat there are sooooo many jokes to be made about nuts, tool holding and helpers/wifeys (not to mention the "alone" part) - why you gots to tempt me, bro?!?!?!

Old 07-13-2016, 11:19 PM
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lol
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Pat there are sooooo many jokes to be made about nuts, tool holding and helpers/wifeys (not to mention the "alone" part) - why you gots to tempt me, bro?!?!?!

Just keeping you sharp...
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:53 AM
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Mark - using an impact wrench to remove the older large cam nut works just fine and is much faster, with less hassle and less chance of damaging your knuckles.

There are zero downsides to this, so if you have air (impact wrenches adequate for this and tire changing are not expensive for shade tree or amateur racing/DE use) and purchase a 46mm socket and a 1/2 to 3/4 adapter, you are set. I suppose if you only expect to do an engine once in your lifetime the 46mm socket may make forgoing the impact wrench approach cost appealing.


When I torque this nut on reassembly, after I have set the timing and snugged the nut pretty well just holding the holder by hand and rechecked the timing, I slip a piece of pipe over the end of the holder. It slides up almost to the wrench end of the holder and rests at maybe a 30 degree angle on the floor to one side of my engine stand. That allows me to use both hands on the big open socket and the torque wrench. Works great as long as I have positioned the pipe on the proper side!

If your pipe is too short to slide all or almost all the way up, you might end up bending the rod part of the holder when applying the speced torque - mine has a slight bend to if from learning this, but it just holds the pipe a bit better.
Old 07-14-2016, 07:42 PM
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Sorry, don't want to high-jack this thread, but I was about to start a post about the exact same issue!

I am rebuilding the engine of my 1980 911SC, and tried to remove the cam nuts tonight with the help of my adult son. Had the proper tools (crows-foot + cam holder socket) + long extension and we can not get the nut(s) to budge. I do have air, but would prefer to try it with the hand-tools first. Is there a better way to secure the cam holder bar? Maybe "locked" to some other part of the engine? If not, perhaps all we need is longer breaker bars or pipe.

If I do resort to the impact gun, is there anything special I need to do first? Thanks
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Old 07-15-2016, 05:18 PM
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Flywheel locking device........

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWFIE 69 911E View Post
Sorry, don't want to high-jack this thread, but I was about to start a post about the exact same issue!

I am rebuilding the engine of my 1980 911SC, and tried to remove the cam nuts tonight with the help of my adult son. Had the proper tools (crows-foot + cam holder socket) + long extension and we can not get the nut(s) to budge. I do have air, but would prefer to try it with the hand-tools first. Is there a better way to secure the cam holder bar? Maybe "locked" to some other part of the engine? If not, perhaps all we need is longer breaker bars or pipe.

If I do resort to the impact gun, is there anything special I need to do first? Thanks


Newfie,

Are you using a flywheel locking device? I am 5'8" weighs less than 140 lbs. with a bad back and bum knee and well over 70 years old, yet I have not encountered a cam nut that would not come off with a 3 feet pipe extension using the 46-mm crowfoot. And I work solo. Use another extension pipe for the cam holder tool and let it rest on a chair or foot stool. What you need is leverage. The longer the extension pipe the less effort to exert. I have not tried the impact wrench method. Maybe next time.

Tony
Old 07-15-2016, 06:18 PM
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I recommend the impact. This was on a '75 breakdown~

I zipped the left-side off after HOURS AND HOURS of frustration and worry about putting LOTS of weight with an almost 4ft. breaker bar. I was concerned I was going to snap the motor off of my stand, especially with the soft magnesium case and already compromised flywheel treads. I definitely still had my flywheel lock on the back.

The right side came off with the special tools, no problem.
Old 07-15-2016, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
Newfie,

Are you using a flywheel locking device? I am 5'8" weighs less than 140 lbs. with a bad back and bum knee and well over 70 years old, yet I have not encountered a cam nut that would not come off with a 3 feet pipe extension using the 46-mm crowfoot. And I work solo. Use another extension pipe for the cam holder tool and let it rest on a chair or foot stool. What you need is leverage. The longer the extension pipe the less effort to exert. I have not tried the impact wrench method. Maybe next time.

Tony
Many thanks Tony,

No, I don't have the flywheel locked, but I can; is that required? I thought the idea was to use the cam holder to prevent things from moving...

Yes, I obviously need more leverage! First attempt was using relatively short breaker bars. Will acquire some long pipes and try again.
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by boyt911sc View Post
I have not tried the impact wrench method. Maybe next time.

Tony
Once you do, you'll never go back and will kick yourself in the hindquarters, hard, for messing around with various leverage increasesers all these years - way easier, way less strain on components, and much less risk of busting ass, or knuckles, with an air gun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by infraredcalvin View Post
Just keeping you sharp...
Thanks!

Speaking of which, I see that Walt dropped some doozies in his post (pipe too short, etc.) - that sneaky bastage!!!

Last edited by Rawknees'Turbo; 07-16-2016 at 12:17 PM..
Old 07-16-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo View Post
Once you do, you'll never go back and will kick yourself in the hindquarters, hard, for messing around with various leverage increasesers all these years - way easier, way less strain on components, and much less risk of busting ass, or knuckles, with an air gun.


Thanks!

Speaking of which, I see that Walt dropped some doozies in his post (pipe too short, etc.) - that sneaky bastage!!!
Thanks. Maybe I will also try the impact gun method instead. Do I need to lock the flywheel when using the impact, or wrenches? Thanks!
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWFIE 69 911E View Post
Thanks. Maybe I will also try the impact gun method instead. Do I need to lock the flywheel when using the impact, or wrenches? Thanks!
No you don't need the lock to take them off, but you should have it for installing the flywheel, pulley etc.

An AC VW lock is the same, you can get it from cip1.ca, Canadian so no duties, exchange...
$100 worth of stuff and it's free shipping, bunch of VW stuff like vacuum hoses, etc. are the same as the porsche part so $100 is easy.
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Old 07-17-2016, 02:37 PM
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